Interesting piece about the SDP split

[LeslieB]

People under 45 will have been children, or not born, in 1981 but this is an interesting video piece about the SDP split from Labour in that year. Even if you already know the story, it's worth watching for the interviews

Gang of Four: Could the Labour Party split again? - BBC News

 

[planetgeli]

In fairness it's not really that interesting is it? Apart from that bit where they all nearly get decapitated by the bridge while standing on top of their battle bus. And that would have been more funny than interesting. No, what you've quoted here is another Anti-Corbyn spin piece from the BBC (makes a change from the Guardian) where the title "Could the Labour Party split again" has the words "please, please let it be so" missing off the end.

 

[LeslieB]

I found it quite interesting but hey ho.

 

[brogdale]

Rodgers still alive and an hirsute Hattersley.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Getting the Blairites to split and fuck off would be a great. Just because I could do with some shits and giggles really. Kendall for PM! Fighting the corner of the 4.5%!

 

[MarkyMarrk]

Getting the Blairites to split and fuck off would be a great. Just because I could do with some shits and giggles really. Kendall for PM! Fighting the corner of the 4.5%!

The shits and giggles of decades of Tory government. Sounds brilliant.

 

[stethoscope]

The shits and giggles of decades of Tory government. Sounds brilliant.

Or a (new) Labour one doing pretty much the same thing?

 

[gosub]

In fairness it's not really that interesting is it? Apart from that bit where they all nearly get decapitated by the bridge while standing on top of their battle bus. And that would have been more funny than interesting. No, what you've quoted here is another Anti-Corbyn spin piece from the BBC (makes a change from the Guardian) where the title "Could the Labour Party split again" has the words "please, please let it be so" missing off the end.

Surely the opposite:split at your peril

 

[MarkyMarrk]

Or a (new) Labour one doing pretty much the same thing?

What like the last Labour Government:

minimum wage, nearly 80k more nurses, 30k more teachers, devolved power in Scotland, overseas aid more than doubled, Winter fuel, waiting times cut in half on NHS, Free school milk, fruit, the Disability Rights Commission, free entry to museums and galleries, the Good Friday agreement, paternity leave, civil partnerships.

Do you need me to list up what the Tories have done since?

Just the same, unless you're those suffering under the Tories.

 

[MarkyMarrk]

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
2. Low mortgage rates.
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.
4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.
8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
9. Employment is at its highest level ever.
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.
11. 85,000 more nurses.
12. 32,000 more doctors.
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.
19. Restored city-wide government to London.
20. Record number of students in higher education.
21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.
33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.
35. Banned fox hunting.
36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
37. Free TV licences for over-75s.
38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.
42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
43. Free eye test for over 60s.
44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.
46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.
48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.
49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

But fuck it, let's keep the Tories. Just the same.

 

[agricola]

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
2. Low mortgage rates.
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.
4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.
8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
9. Employment is at its highest level ever.
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.
11. 85,000 more nurses.
12. 32,000 more doctors.
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.
19. Restored city-wide government to London.
20. Record number of students in higher education.
21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.
33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.
35. Banned fox hunting.
36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
37. Free TV licences for over-75s.
38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.
42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
43. Free eye test for over 60s.
44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.
46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.
48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.
49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

But fuck it, let's keep the Tories. Just the same.

Sad to think that there are at least 10,000 dead Iraqis for each one of those points.

 

[MarkyMarrk]

Sad to think that there are at least 10,000 dead Iraqis for each one of those points.

I couldn't agree more. That is sad. It's an unrelated point. I find the debate over the war problematic and complex and I think I'd be against if I was an adult back then.

But how does that make it OK to want the Tories in semi-permanently "for shits and giggles"? It's an unrelated point, isn't it?

 

[stethoscope]

But fuck it, let's keep the Tories. Just the same.

Labour did some good things sure (some of that list is smaller policy stuff), but their embracing of neo-liberalism, increased privatisation, abandoning of any nationalisation and commitment to future public ownership - ie. causing massive structural changes to our society and economy is a continuation of Tory ideology, and will leave us fucked over for generations. After all, Cameron's Tories looked to Blair and New Labour as their ideological inspiration.

And then there's the warmongering and shit foreign policies that again will fuck us over for years to come, as well as the lives lost.

 

[MarkyMarrk]

Labour did some good things sure (mainly smaller scale policy), but their embracing of neo-liberalism, privatisation, abandoning of any nationalisation and commitment to future public ownership - ie. causing massive structural changes to our society and economy is a continuation of Tory ideology, and will leave us fucked over for generations. After all, Cameron's Tories looked to Blair and New Labour as their ideological inspiration.

And then there's the warmongering and shit foreign policies that again will fuck us over for years to come, as well as the lives lost.

Cameron's Tories look to Thatcher for inspiration and would not have done those things that made a difference to people's lives.
The 'they're all the same' brigade really are happy to have the Tories. It's stupid.

 

[Sasaferrato]

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
2. Low mortgage rates.
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.
4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.
8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
9. Employment is at its highest level ever.
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.
11. 85,000 more nurses.
12. 32,000 more doctors.
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.
19. Restored city-wide government to London.
20. Record number of students in higher education.
21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.
33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.
35. Banned fox hunting.
36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
37. Free TV licences for over-75s.
38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.
42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
43. Free eye test for over 60s.
44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.
46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.
48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.
49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

But fuck it, let's keep the Tories. Just the same.

Whilst we have child poverty at home.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Labour did some good things sure (some of that list is smaller policy stuff), but their embracing of neo-liberalism, increased privatisation, abandoning of any nationalisation and commitment to future public ownership - ie. causing massive structural changes to our society and economy is a continuation of Tory ideology, and will leave us fucked over for generations. After all, Cameron's Tories looked to Blair and New Labour as their ideological inspiration.

And then there's the warmongering and shit foreign policies that again will fuck us over for years to come, as well as the lives lost.

Three letters. P.F.I., the repayments on which are crippling NHS Trusts.

 

[stethoscope]

Cameron's Tories look to Thatcher for inspiration and would not have done those things that made a difference to people's lives.

The whole (new) Labour project was about being continuing the neo-liberalism and privatisation that Thatcher started, whilst retaining an element of social justice (words like 'only we care about the NHS' whilst dismantling its internal structure and opening it up to private market). That's not saying that I don't fear the Tories more than Labour, because I really do, but it's burying your head in the sand to think that Labour have been and will be any different again.

In fact, until the unexpected appointment of Corbyn, Labour's projectory was still very much following in the stuff that the coalition government was doing (with the occasional nod to 'but less quickly and harshly'). And Corbyn, trying to even pull the party a little bit back closer to its democratic socialist routes, well, look at the panic that's set in amongst the Blairite core of the parliamentary party, and the press/media - truly desperate stuff. And it's clearly rattling you too if you're reduced to quoting blogs of '50 things Labour did' and quotes from Shirley Williams and slagging off Corbyn every thread.

When I first started posting, I was still a 'grin and bear it' as I put a tick in the Labour box on the ballot paper because i hated the Tories so much. 'It's still got to be that bit better under Labour' I kept telling myself through the New Labour years, and then into the coalition. It was difficult to finally accept, that despite even Corbyn's recent interjection to shake things up a bit, Labour at some point will push him out and return back to the same course they were on when in power last time. They'll tell us how things will be so much more progressive under them, with promises of more social housing, a better NHS, less draconian benefit testing, better education standards, whilst pursuing the very neo-liberal policies that will take us more down the same old road.

 

[brogdale]

Cameron's Tories look to Thatcher for inspiration and would not have done those things that made a difference to people's lives.
The 'they're all the same' brigade really are happy to have the Tories. It's stupid.

That is stupid Mark.
Identifying that the 2 major parties shared key, ideological beliefs wrt neo-liberal capitalism does not equate to support for any particular party of capital.

 

[MarkyMarrk]

The whole (new) Labour project was about being continuing the neo-liberalism and privatisation that Thatcher started, whilst retaining an element of social justice (words like 'only we care about the NHS' whilst dismantling its internal structure and opening it up to private market). That's not saying that I don't fear the Tories more than Labour, because I really do, but it's burying your head in the sand to think that Labour have been and will be any different again.

In fact, until the unexpected appointment of Corbyn, Labour's projectory was still very much following in the stuff that the coalition government was doing (with the occasional nod to 'but less quickly and harshly'). And Corbyn, trying to even pull the party a little bit back closer to its democratic socialist routes, well, look at the panic that's set in amongst the Blairite core of the parliamentary party, and the press/media - truly desperate stuff. And it's clearly rattling you too if you're reduced to quoting blogs of '50 things Labour did' and quotes from Shirley Williams and slagging off Corbyn every thread.

When I first started posting, I was still a 'grin and bear it' as I put a tick in the Labour box on the ballot paper because i hated the Tories so much. 'It's still got to be that bit better under Labour' I kept telling myself through the New Labour years, and then into the coalition. It was difficult to finally accept, that despite even Corbyn's recent interjection to shake things up a bit, Labour at some point will push him out and return back to the same course they were on when in power last time. They'll tell us how things will be so much more progressive under them, with promises of more social housing, a better NHS, less draconian benefit testing, better education standards, whilst pursuing the very neo-liberal policies that will take us more down the same old road.

You think, despite all the above, that the Tories would have been the same as Labour. That without a minimum wage, item one, people's lives would be exactly the same?
This is purile nonsense. People are dying because of the Tories' attitude to the working class, immigration, and benefits. And yes, it might not be as brilliant as you'd like with a Labour Government, the coalition undid some great work that kept people alive.
Saying it makes no difference, in my experience, is indicative that you can afford to preach about these things.

 

[stethoscope]

You think, despite all the above, that the Tories would have been the same as Labour. That without a minimum wage, item one, people's lives would be exactly the same?
This is purile nonsense. People are dying because of the Tories' attitude to the working class, immigration, and benefits.

People are and were fucking dying under Labour. Perhaps you didn't notice how their policies were fucking over working class and disadvantaged people then?

Saying it makes no difference, in my experience, is indicative that you can afford to preach about these things.

You're the one buying a 250k house aren't you and have rich parents to help stump up a sizeable deposit? Swap for my tiny 100k flat up north if you want? Don't get me wrong, I'm more fortunate than many, but don't have savings, or rich parents to fall back on. Just fucking listen to yourself.

 

[MarkyMarrk]

You're the one buying a 250k house aren't you and have rich parents to help stump up a sizeable deposit? Swap for my tiny 100k flat up north if you want? Don't get me wrong, I'm more fortunate than many, but don't have savings, or rich parents to fall back on. Just fucking listen to yourself.

So exactly the sort that can shrug.

 

[stethoscope]

So exactly the sort that can shrug.

What, rich boy?!

 

[MarkyMarrk]

Fuck it, let's just have the Tories. I can't think of anything more face palming.

 

[stethoscope]

I'm sure you just make shit up in your head that you think people might have said, and then say it back to yourself.

 

[agricola]

I couldn't agree more. That is sad. It's an unrelated point. I find the debate over the war problematic and complex and I think I'd be against if I was an adult back then.

But how does that make it OK to want the Tories in semi-permanently "for shits and giggles"? It's an unrelated point, isn't it?

Is it? What you have been claiming lately is that continuity Blairism is the only possible way to get rid of the Tories, so you have to accept the rest of what he did.

 

[LeslieB]

Is it? What you have been claiming lately is that continuity Blairism is the only possible way to get rid of the Tories, so you have to accept the rest of what he did.

Not at all. Lots of people supported the rest of that governments policy whilst opposing the Iraq War.

Do you really think it was just the hard left that opposed it?

 

[agricola]

Not at all. Lots of people supported the rest of that governments policy whilst opposing the Iraq War.

Do you really think it was just the hard left that opposed it?

So basically what you (and MarkyMarrk, if you are separate posters) is saying is that Blair's positive achievements count, but his negative achievements do not?

 

[stethoscope]

Not at all. Lots of people supported the rest of that governments policy whilst opposing the Iraq War.

Do you really think it was just the hard left that opposed it?

And New Labour's economic liberalism, privatisation, PFI, private ownership at the cost of social and public provision and ownership - did you support that?

 

[LeslieB]

So basically what you (and MarkyMarrk, if you are separate posters) is saying is that Blair's positive achievements count, but his negative achievements do not?

I'm not saying that at all. Iraq is definitely a black mark against Blair, and a very large and blood stained one at that.

Lots of people on the left, right and centre opposed the Iraq War. Nick Clegg opposed it. So did Ken Clarke.

And me and MarkyMark are definitely separate posters- just because we broadly agree on something doesn't make us the same person!

 

[stethoscope]

Nick Clegg opposed Iraq, yay! What an honourable man who didn't want greater economic liberalism, help the Tories enact loads of shit policies and recently vote for strikes in Syria.