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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

Have a look at Rozenberg's subsquent FB post 31 July. It's a public post so you should be able to access it. Emerson QC, counsel to the inquiry,
<snip>told Goddard that he would not be calling his first witnesses in the Janner investigation until March 2017, six months later than had been announced. That was because some of the complainants who had made allegations against Janner at children’s homes in Leicestershire have also accused other people of child abuse at the same time and in the same homes. Those allegations were under active investigation by Leicestershire police. As Emmerson explained, it would make sense to co-ordinate evidence-gathering.

Goddard agreed to the delay. But then Samantha Leek QC, for Leicestershire police, asked Goddard to restrict publication of what Emmerson had disclosed an hour or so earlier. “There are a number of suspects who do not yet know that they are under investigation,” Leek said. “I’m told that to alert them to that fact at this stage may prejudice the ongoing criminal investigation.” The information disclosed by Emmerson had been given by Leicestershire police to the Goddard inquiry in confidence, she insisted.

This wasn’t in Goddard’s script and she appeared completely thrown. The fact that there was an investigation on foot “must be a matter of public interest and therefore not a matter of suppression”, she said, completely missing the point. Patiently, Leek tried to explain that the police were happy for the public to know they were making inquiries but detectives wanted the details to remain confidential. “It is specifically the fact that it relates to the particular homes at which Janner was alleged to have committed abuse and at the particular time at which Janner was alleged to have committed the abuse,” she said.

At this point, Goddard started talking vaguely about “a contempt situation”. She seemed to have no idea that she had been given statutory powers to restrict disclosure of evidence and that these powers were to be found in the Inquiries Act 2015. Even when this was pointed out to her, she seemed unsure about whether the powers were to be found in the legislation or in subsequent rules.

So Emmerson spelled it out for her, while trying to explain why he had announced something to which the police were now objecting. Slowly, Goddard began to get the point. “Is that objection based on the fact that someone should not learn that they are under investigation through the media but should learn through the police?” Yes, replied Emmerson: the police were concerned about a tip-off.

It was at this point that Goddard seemed to realise she was being expected to make a decision, there and then, without the chance of going away and phoning a friend.

“What I’m being asked to balance on the hoof, so to speak, are the interests of justice in publishing matters of public interest and of not jeopardising, it seems to me, an investigation,” Goddard observed. “I do find this quite an extraordinary and difficult application.”

The former judge then proceeded to demonstrate just how difficult she found it to take a decision by asking Leek to repeat again and again what the barrister had said already. Next, Goddard agreed to hear from reporters present (not me; I’d left by that stage). But then she demonstrated that she had completely failed to take in what Emerson had told her about her powers under section 19 of the Inquiries Act.

“This is not something that I want to make a rushed or extempore decision about,” she said. “I just want to be able to give this a little bit more care and consideration, which I'm happy to do later this afternoon when everybody has collected their thoughts and given me some precedent and local law to go on. I am used to certain laws about freedom of information which err on that side, if I can call it erring, but I need to know the local scene.”

What? This was nothing to do with freedom of information. It was nothing to do with precedent. It was nothing to do with the “local scene”, whatever that might be. Goddard had already been told the “local law”, as she quaintly termed the act of parliament under which she had been appointed. It sets out the factors she was required to take into account. All she had to do was to read the section in front of her and apply the law to the facts.

Eventually, Emerson told Goddard that the police could have been in no doubt that he was going to disclose at the hearing that their investigations and the Goddard inquiry had witnesses in common. That seemed to tip the balance. Goddard then announced she would not be making a restriction order while adding, cryptically, “at the very most, I would amend that to suppress the number 7 in relation to the complainant core participants”.

What are we to make of the way Goddard handled this? It was not an extraordinary or difficult application at all. It was simply a misconceived and belated attempt by the police to unpublish information which those who stood to benefit from it must surely have worked out for themselves. Anyone qualified to chair a public inquiry would have heard argument on the factors set out in section 19 of the act, considered the circumstances in which the inquiry team were given the information and concluded that publication would not cause “harm or damage” within the strict definition laid down by parliament.
 
Thanks. The way this forum showed that stuff caused me to only read his original piece and not the follow-up, hence me not understanding the idea that the criticism was about her inability to make a decision.

I guess that certainly gives me an indication of where she was out of her depth.

It doesn't change my other thoughts though, god how I hate the emphasis and priorities of writers like that. They usually make a number of points I can completely agree with but they can't help going too far into territory that is shit, shit, shit.
 
Thanks. The way this forum showed that stuff caused me to only read his original piece and not the follow-up, hence me not understanding the idea that the criticism was about her inability to make a decision.
Yes, apologies. Inadequate linking on my part.

I agree that an inquiry cannot be purely legalistic - the fact that an inquiry is necessary at all is an acknowledgement that the legal system has failed to deliver justice - but any matter as complex as this needs a strong and experienced decision maker driving it forward. Goddard was not right the job, and it is for the best that she has packed it in at an early stage in the actual hearings.
 
Oops apologies I didn't realise this news had already been posted, should've looked. DotCommunist yeah i remember reading that link you posted concerning her connections.
 
Oops apologies I didn't realise this news had already been posted, should've looked. DotCommunist yeah i remember reading that link you posted concerning her connections.
you get the impression that someone who isn't 'one of us' is never going to chair this inquiry. The argument about 'capability' just goes to show the naked class make up of senior judiciary. You can't find any non establishment bod cos all the high court trained are establishment. Longrass continues
 
So what do we know of Alexis Jay and why has google got a 'some results removed' bit on it. Always makes me do this face :hmm:
 
So what do we know of Alexis Jay and why has google got a 'some results removed' bit on it. Always makes me do this face :hmm:

Cant rely on that as a sign of anything anymore. To quote from googles own page:

When you search for a name, you may see a notice that says that results may have been modified in accordance with data protection law in Europe. We’re showing this notice in Europe when a user searches for most names, not just pages that have been affected by a removal.
 
Darren the main informant / abuse survivor at the heart of Operation Midland and Exaro investigations has decided to go public with his identity. From reading his tweets he appears to be concerned that the police will be going after him and other 'informants' and sees being in the public eye as part of his 'protection'.

Darren Thornham (@DarrenCSAS) on Twitter
 
Darren the main informant / abuse survivor at the heart of Operation Midland and Exaro investigations has decided to go public with his identity. From reading his tweets he appears to be concerned that the police will be going after him and other 'informants' and sees being in the public eye as part of his 'protection'.

Darren Thornham (@DarrenCSAS) on Twitter
...groomed and manipulated by Exaro news...
Interesting.
 
The more this farrago grinds on, the more I feel as if nothing at all has gone wrong; on the contrary, it has gone exactly right. We will reach a point where someone will sigh heavily, express regret to all the victims, and explain that, after so much chaos and confusion, it would be impossible to have an inquiry which reached any useful conclusions, thanks for your courage in coming forward, etc., blah, lessons learned, change is a-blowin' in the wind, nothing to see here, move along.

And then only the total silence of the dust settling from the whole thing having been dropped down a conveniently deep hole.
 
Yeah that was the sense I got from that article, much more kicking into the long grass or certainly preparing us for the expectation that this will be the case.
 
The Guardian pays for those pieces and it's disgusting that Beatrix Campbell has received even a penny for her opinion on child abuse issues. She helped spread the completely false allegations of abuse in Newcastle that destroyed the lives of innocent people. This article on that clusterfuck is long but worth reading: Cleared: nursery nurses' fight for justice
 
This inquiry was highly likely to show that all the agencies with responsibility for children's welfare are unfit for purpose. It would have had to criticize, both local and national government, the justice system, churches of all denominations, the education system both public and private, the NHS, the care system, the police, social services and charities to list but a few. It would have clearly undermined the ability of the state to keep children safe in the minds of millions of peoples.

The scale of child abuse is massively under reported, the Children’s Commissioner for England (who are likely to be conservative with their figures) estimates that only 1 in 8 are identified by professionals because the system is geared towards children "self-referring or reporting abuse" and of course many children do not even recognize that they have been abused until they are much older. With the majority of abuse being carried out with-in families or by trusted people it isn't surprising that the overwhelming majority of kids don't tell anyone.

I'm surprised that a country such as England doesn't have mandatory reporting for all professionals who have contact with children.

I read a report sometime ago (I'm sure the figures were for the USA not England iirc) that 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 5 boys will experience some form of sexual abuse by the time they are 18 years old, why would the figures be different for England?

I agree with existentialist comments above, this will end with someone making an apology and the whole sorry episode being dropped in a deep hole.
 
I'm surprised that a country such as England doesn't have mandatory reporting for all professionals who have contact with children.
This is the only bit I take issue with.

When this mandatory reporting thing first raised its head, I was still working in schools. I gave it considerable thought, and came to the decision that, if it came into force, I would have to resign that job.

I'm a dedicated professional, and that work with young people meant a lot to me, but I was not prepared to have to risk prison in the name of my job.

Which might sound like a funny thing for a "dedicated professional" to say, so I'll try and explain.

One of the reasons reporting of child abuse still isn't up to par is because of the way those reports are handled. While there are undoubtedly vast numbers of examples of best practice in action, there are also very many cases where interventions, carried out by overstretched staff being managed by statistics rather than motivation to do the best for young people, are heavy handed, and often seriously counterproductive. Having experienced that kind of intervention as a result of making the kind of disclosure that would be covered under mandatory reporting (concerning a suicidal client, in that case), I resolved that I would never do so again, unless in my judgement the child was at imminent serious risk of harm.

As it was, my policy put me outwith the formal policy of my employer, but I was prepared to stand my ground there, if it ever arose (it didn't). To put myself in a position where I was having to be accountable in a court for a professional decision made on ethical grounds was not, in my view, tolerable.

And the likelihood is that it would be "dedicated professionals" like me, with the experience and opinionatedness to stand up for our clients' best interests, who would be most likely to be caught out by this: staff who were more compliant, less experienced, or who perhaps lacked the same desire to be practically effective, not just going through the motions, who would be hit hardest by this, and most likely not to wish to put themselves in that position.

Given suitably professional, well-resourced individuals working within a facilitative system that isn't just about box ticking and arse-covering, it would not be necessary to legislate for mandatory reporting. If people aren't reporting now, it's either because they are unwilling or unable to do so (which is an issue of professionalism), or because they lack faith in the system to respond appropriately, proportionately, sensitively, or effectively.

Get that right - and we are a LONG way from doing that - and there will be no reason for people like me to have to consider whether the clients best interest is served by making a disclosure. Otherwise, we're just punishing people at the coal face for the systemic failings of a service which has always tended to be something of a Cinderella.
 
existentialist
A friend of mine who works as a teacher in England said something similar to me about mandatory reporting, she said the problem is the lack of systems and resources are not in-place. She reported a case of what she believed were clear signs of sexual abuse to her line manager, who intern reported it up the chain. It ended up with someone called the "designated safeguarding lead" in the education department, who apparently didn't know what to do about it (according to what her headteacher told her). When I asked her what the outcome was, she said the headteacher (said he) spoke to the parents and she didn't hear anything else.

Surely it can't be beyond the ability of the state or educations departments to put something workable in place or maybe they don't want to highlight what they know is a massive problem that would need massive resources to deal with, that wouldn't surprise me.
 
existentialist
A friend of mine who works as a teacher in England said something similar to me about mandatory reporting, she said the problem is the lack of systems and resources are not in-place. She reported a case of what she believed were clear signs of sexual abuse to her line manager, who intern reported it up the chain. It ended up with someone called the "designated safeguarding lead" in the education department, who apparently didn't know what to do about it (according to what her headteacher told her). When I asked her what the outcome was, she said the headteacher (said he) spoke to the parents and she didn't hear anything else.
That sounds very typical.

Surely it can't be beyond the ability of the state or educations departments to put something workable in place or maybe they don't want to highlight what they know is a massive problem that would need massive resources to deal with, that wouldn't surprise me.
Public sector workers often find they are inhabiting a strange netherworld, in which policy can state quite clearly that certain things should happen, while in practice the opposite happens, and yet it is impossible to pin anyone down to try and find where the disconnection is.

Go to any local authority, and they will happily (ish) furnish you with their child protection policies, and the various designated individuals responsible for implementing them.

Actually watch the policies being implemented, and what you find is that, somewhere between the conception of the policy and its execution, all of the original intentions have been transmuted via a kind of reverse-alchemical process into a bunch of tick boxes, which bear no relation to the goals such policies are intended to achieve.

So, suddenly, rather than keeping a child safe, the most important priority becomes to tick the box that says An Intervention Has Been Made, Per Statutory Requirements. With the result that some unbriefed social worker has been sent to drop the news on a child's parents that they said X. In many cases, the parents are quite the wrong people to be telling (sometimes they're part of the problem), in others it is done against the express wishes of the child, who just learns to distrust a whole other bunch of adults.

And, almost invariably, the result of all this upheaval is...nothing. A cash-strapped and overwhelmed social services department, or child and adolescent mental health service, has had to ration its offerings, which invariably means hoisting up its skirts a little higher, so that all of a sudden, a child who, under statutory guidance, is at sufficient risk to trigger the disclosure process isn't actually at sufficient risk to warrant an intervention. And so it's quickly brushed under the carpet, any remaining boxes neatly ticked, and the problem goes away.

Except that a child has either found out what happens if they DO share with an adult what's going on (chaos happens, that's what), or a child who genuinely needs help and support has it dangled before them (at a price paid in chaos, which they're willing to pay if it gets them what they need) and then snatched away at the last minute because they're "not suicidal enough", or whatever.

And frequently end up feeling betrayed and hopeless, and having the feelings of despair and hurt reinforced by the sense they get that telling someone doesn't really make any difference anyway.

No wonder, perhaps, that some of those children end up attempting suicide, or escalating their self-harm, etc.

And I am not prepared to collude in such a system, nor to go to prison for refusing to collude.
 
The more this farrago grinds on, the more I feel as if nothing at all has gone wrong; on the contrary, it has gone exactly right. We will reach a point where someone will sigh heavily, express regret to all the victims, and explain that, after so much chaos and confusion, it would be impossible to have an inquiry which reached any useful conclusions, thanks for your courage in coming forward, etc., blah, lessons learned, change is a-blowin' in the wind, nothing to see here, move along.

And then only the total silence of the dust settling from the whole thing having been dropped down a conveniently deep hole.

The mood music may have changed, but the inquiry is far from dead. I don't expect it to go down a hole, even if certain aspects fall away.

As far as 'highest level abuse' goes there is certainly no sign of any great revelations but this is because the thing I was always going on about doesn't seem to have happened - no critical mass of victims coming forwards in relation to specific perpetrators. All the other bollocks and agendas that have fucked with the mood music would not have been so successful if there had been more on that front, but it was always going to be tough for so many reasons.
 
The mood music may have changed, but the inquiry is far from dead. I don't expect it to go down a hole, even if certain aspects fall away.

As far as 'highest level abuse' goes there is certainly no sign of any great revelations but this is because the thing I was always going on about doesn't seem to have happened - no critical mass of victims coming forwards in relation to specific perpetrators. All the other bollocks and agendas that have fucked with the mood music would not have been so successful if there had been more on that front, but it was always going to be tough for so many reasons.
I hope you're right.
 
I hope you're right.

Even if I am I don't think its quite what people were hoping for anyway. A very broad and long inquiry can still go ahead yet fail to deliver on the most sensational fronts.

My stance all along has been based on the idea that not too much modern coverup is required because the passage of time and the historical coverups did their job long ago. Combine that with having no clear sense of the scale of the abuse in terms of number of high level perpetrators, and I was left not expecting that much. At least not on the most sensational fronts if you know what I mean.

I did and still do expect some progress on some other levels, including stuff that may help victims find a degree of closure. And some examination of a few dead perpetrators, their methods and protectors. But I have certainly been too optimistic in the past at times, I thought the wider need to 'restore credibility' and 'draw a line under things' would leave one or two living perpetrators exposed to justice. Well this sort of nearly happened once or twice but it was a mess with strong pressures in both directions and ill health and death waiting to put a stop to it.
 
Hard to know exactly what to think or say about the suspension and resignations at the top of the inquiries legal team without having the inside story. Seems reasonable to suggest that Emmerson has been one of the friction points on more than one occasion but I've got no sense of detail on this and maybe run the risk of creating a sideshow if I try exploring that now anyway.

Despite my various posts where I've declared hope that something will still come out of the inquiry and that it isn't completely doomed, I can fully understand why this unending saga of personnel issues is completely eroding the faith and hope of some.

Abuse victims 'saddened' as Ben Emmerson QC quits inquiry - BBC News

The Shirley Oaks Survivors Association described the decision to quit by Ben Emmerson QC as "devastating".

It said some survivors were losing faith, believing the investigation's large remit was designed to fail.
 
Of course it's designed to fail, when something this sick and twisted goes as deep as this does, do you really think that ANYONE will EVER get held to account? A few sacrificial lambs will be all they offer us. The rest, like that Janner cunt, will be protected until death, when all of a sudden all involved will say "oh yes, we knew about him". But they will do FUCK ALL, because this is exactly how this has been designed to go down. Frustrating as fuck, but this is how it will play out. I'll put every penny I ever fucking earn on it. :mad:
 
I know what you mean. But at the same time if you are going to dismiss anyone that is ever actually held to account as simply being a sacrificial lamb, and speak in mysterious tones of the unknown depths, then of course you are never going to feel like any real justice has been served.
 
More on this today:

Mold Crown Court heard Gordon Anglesea was trying to "wriggle out" of the fact he "said two vastly different things" during a High Court libel action in 1994, and the current trial.

...The court has previously heard one complainant claim sexual abuse by Mr Anglesea in a shower block.

Last week, during questioning by his own barrister, Mr Anglesea told the court he visited a shower area of a Home Office attendance centre he used to run "once or twice".

Cross-examining Mr Anglesea on Monday, Eleanor Laws QC, referred to evidence he gave in the 1994 libel case, which resulted in Mr Anglesea being awarded nearly £400,000 in damages.

In 1994, under oath, he was asked: "Did you stand in the showers watching the boys regularly?"

He had answered: "I went to the showers on every occasion the attendance centre was open."

...Mr Anglesea confirmed to the court he had been given the chance to read through the libel transcript over the weekend.

He said: "I read it and I realised there was an interpretation on there which to me was incorrect."

He said his libel evidence could have been "misconstrued" and he did not go into the shower area every time.

Ms Laws accused him of lying under oath, either during the libel action, or to the present jury.

She said he was trying to "wriggle out of the fact you said two vastly different things".

She accused him of making things up, to which he replied: "I have made nothing up at all."

As they say, the trial continues, sub judice caveats etc.

Abuse charge ex-policeman Gordon Anglesea 'lied under oath' - BBC News
 
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