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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

Despite the report, it's chair and his own Home Secretary saying no such thing, Dave claims...

There will be lessons to learn from this report and people should study it closely. But I think it is important that it says there was not a cover-up. So some of the people who have been looking for conspiracy theories I think will have to look elsewhere.
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:mad:
 
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Although I never expected the Wanless report to be very interesting, I am going to read almost all of it anyway.

The best I can hope for is that some extra details about various matters we have heard about in the past may get a mention. I suspect there won't be that many, so I am going to start off by copying and pasting things that catch my eye, and will change approach if it starts to get too much.

29. HMRC had made a specific search in relation to a border stop because Tom Bateman from the Today programme asked HMRC questions about information relating to a specific case relating to the importation of a video tape seized at Dover in 1982 which it was said contained images of child abuse.

30. HM Customs and Excise was taken over by the Inland Revenue to form a new department, HMRC, with effect from 18 April 2005. HMRC understand that it was HM Customs and Excise’s policy to dispose of forfeited material but that material retained as evidence for criminal or other legal proceedings would be held at the Queen’s Warehouse. HMRC further understand that on 5 July the Dover Queen’s Warehouse was searched by Border Force and no record of the 1982 seizure or the seized goods themselves could be found.
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And before I post any more contents, I certainly do not accept the idea that these particular reports are clearly a whitewash. Lets be clear about what specific concerns these reports were looking at:

The Dickens dossier.
The number of missing home office files they counted upon relatively recent investigation.
Home office funding of PIE.

Personally I never considered the latter two to be the likely source of much in the way of smoking guns etc, even in a world where it would be possible to completely get to the bottom of them via these reports. I am openminded about the Dickens dossier. On balance given the nature of the man I would not be surprised if the bulk of it consisted of stuff that fell well below exciting press descriptions, both then and now, of 'high level paedophiles'. But its also quite feasible that there was at least something highly inconvenient in there, even if it consisted of an extreme minority of the material. Since I hold out very low hopes of the dossier ever turning up, we are reliant on at least some of the original sources for material supplied to Dickens (e.g. letters from constituents) coming forwards again now in modern times. Granted my ability to talk about this in full is still somewhat limited by not being able to describe in the fullest of terms what the most lurid of public suspicions about the dossier and what happened to it actually consist of, despite recent use of parliamentary privilege.

With that in mind, the main reason I don't consider this report to be a whitewash is that it does not pretend to be doing the broader subject justice in any way. If it were even possible to use such an inconclusive report to 'draw a line' under the couple of very specific lines of questioning from the press etc that prompted the report in the first place, it would still fail to whitewash the broader question of high-level abuse of children.

I'll try to put it one more way for absolute clarity on my position. I'm not heavily critical of the current reports because of their inevitably limited potential, and not for sinister reasons. The real action is elsewhere, and even there it is not quite possible for me to yet speak of present-day coverups. Mostly because from the very small number of press sources that appear to keep us somewhat informed about some of the police investigations, we tend to get a picture of things being right on the edge in terms of number of witnesses/victims coming forwards. Only if we get a few more in various cases, and their existence becomes known to the press and reported, will I be able to make any claims about present whitewashes as opposed to the now unavoidable echo's of historical ones.
 
Hence the importance of the likes of the words of 'Nick' being given coverage by Exaro in relation to Dolphin Square - he knows how hard it will be for his evidence to police to go anywhere if others don't come forwards too.

Also this reported change earlier today:

Mark Conrad @markconradhack · 7h7 hours ago
HASC: MPs ask how are we going to find out whether cover-ups (of abuse by high-profile ppl) took place? Wanless: the testimony of survivors.
 
The likes of the BBC article linked to earlier fail to report clearly the conclusions of the review of review 2 which covered this matter. So here it is.

Review 2 concluded that on the balance of probabilities, the alleged funding of PIE did not take place. While this represents the judgement of the original reviewer it is not a fully satisfactory answer to whether the Home Office ever directly or indirectly funded PIE. We cannot offer categorical assurance one way or the other. It is possible that a Special Branch inspired payment might have taken place - the official records offer no direct evidence to suggest it did, and no other civil servant we have had contact with has corroborated Mr Hulbert's memory, but the records are insufficiently complete to rule it out entirely.
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Been too busy to see if the press has properly picked up on this from earlier today yet, which I've taken from a BBC live updates page ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-30001825 )

MPs have so far focused mainly on appointments for the panel which is conducting the wider inquiry into child abuse, from which chairwoman Fiona Woolf recently resigned. The Home Affairs Committee chair, Labour's Keith Vaz, sums up the victims' groups' evidence as "strongly" supportive of putting the inquiry on a statutory footing.
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hot air baboon said:
...OK now that's a can marked "...may contain worms"..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30002908
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Indeed. I've been looking for more on that since its a much more interesting direction, albeit one mostly likely to be met mostly with more 'there is nothing in our files relevant to that'. The most I've come up with so far in easily quotable print is from this Telegraph article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-could-have-covered-up-paedophile-claims.html

The Home Secretary said that apart from the overarching child sex abuse – which is still without a chairman after the resignation of Fiona Woolf last month – she had asked police and MI5 to carry out further reviews of how they handled allegations of child sex abuse.

And in a further development, Scotland Yard has been asked by Mrs May to look into claims by an investigative journalist that Special Branch officers confiscated a dossier containing a list of 16 MPs and peers allegedly involved in promoting a paedophile group.

Don Hale said he was given the file by Barbara Castle, the former Labour Cabinet minister, which detailed the activities of a controversial group called Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE).
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That article also does a fair job of illustrating again how May was quite careful to say the right things today, in stark contrast to Cameron who completely messed it up again.
 
elbows said:
I am openminded about the Dickens dossier. On balance given the nature of the man I would not be surprised if the bulk of it consisted of stuff that fell well below exciting press descriptions, both then and now, of 'high level paedophiles'. But its also quite feasible that there was at least something highly inconvenient in there, even if it consisted of an extreme minority of the material.
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..we know one name definitely not on it because he gave it to....Leon Brittan...

John Mann on Ch 4 News 11.11.14 estimated there were allegations against "...around 25 prominent politicians - some alive, some dead..." by Police under I assume Operation Fairbridge ( I lose track ) .....of which he was "personally aware of 7" and from talking to others "half ...around 12...." being subject to current investigation by police..
 
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Perhaps an obvious point is that Wanless was only reviewing the way the home office had previously handled the files, it wasn't a search for the files. A no holds barred attempt to trace it all back would have involved him interviewing dozens of people, now retired, who would have been involved, ran the stores, checked things in and out - as well as the more senior/active players. Something forensic. He clearly did none of that.
 
Tim Hulbert Alleges That Home Office Funding For PIE Was Requested By Special Branch

Tim Hulbert, a consultant who worked for the Home Office in the 1980’s, on BBC Radio 4 12th Nov. He claimed that the Paedophile Information Exchange received HO funding.
 
1%er said:
Tim Hulbert Alleges That Home Office Funding For PIE Was Requested By Special Branch

Tim Hulbert, a consultant who worked for the Home Office in the 1980’s, on BBC Radio 4 12th Nov. He claimed that the Paedophile Information Exchange received HO funding.
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And there - after that allegation - the interview ended extremely abruptly.
 
Wilf said:
Perhaps an obvious point is that Wanless was only reviewing the way the home office had previously handled the files, it wasn't a search for the files. A no holds barred attempt to trace it all back would have involved him interviewing dozens of people, now retired, who would have been involved, ran the stores, checked things in and out - as well as the more senior/active players. Something forensic. He clearly did none of that.
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That isn't strictly true, but to be honest the full report is so lacking in really interesting results that I'm loathe to encourage anyone to spend the time reading the full thing to get a more accurate picture. I think I only got about half way through all the documents myself. Certainly it was not no-holds-barred, for a number of reasons, some reasonable and some inexcusable really. The only reason I was not going mad about this before was because as I indicated earlier, I didn't really see this particular set of reviews as being likely to yield interesting stuff in the first place - wouldn't go as far as to call these angles red herrings, but potentially not far off that in some ways, at least compared to the real horrors from the past that presently and at the time had no paper trail to cover up in the first place.

I'm sure my attitude is also partly sponsored by the fact that some of the historical rumours might not be based on anything real, leaving the modern-day establishment figures with an impossible task of disproving something. A task that makes even the very difficult task of proving something in a court of law seem easier to pull off by comparison. As I've said in the past, I'm therefore going to try really hard to judge stuff in a different way - if there were effective coverups in the past then I would expect there are incidents of the powerful abusing kids that really did not make it into the press or the popular rumour mill at the time, and a serious attempt to find justice now should therefore at some point result in people I'm not expecting/anticipating will be busted, or complaining about still being protected, being prosecuted.

Anyway, returning to the reviews, one reason why I would actually advise people to read some of the full documents is if you really want to get a much more detailed grasp of the sorts of things that Geoffrey Dickens was actually passing on to the home office over the years. It's obviously an incomplete picture, but its still helpful when trying to estimate the sort of things likely to be in the missing 'dossiers', and comparing this to the language he used publicly and the way the press reported on such things at the time. In this particular respect the original interim review conducted by a 'HM Customs & Revenues officer' in April 2013 may be the most useful document. Pages 6-7 give background info on him and how the press reported stuff related to him. Pages 14-20 give examples of stuff that he sent to the Home Office at various moments, that still survive to the extent that some comment can be made about their contents.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/372926/Interim_Report_-_Annex_E.PDF

( Taken from the full set of docs at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-peter-wanless-and-richard-whittam-qc-review )
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
The Methave just put out a very brief statement saying Operation Fairbank is now looking into homicide.
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More information about it here [Exaronews]"Operation Midland", one of at least 8 operations now running under operation Fairbank

Sky news
Detectives examining accusations of historical sexual abuse have launched a new investigation into “possible homicide”.

Scotland Yard said officers from Operation Fairbank, which is looking into claims there was a paedophile ring with links to government, have received allegations concerning “serious non-recent sexual abuse”, said to have taken place more than 30 years ago.

A spokesman said: “Our enquiries into this, over subsequent weeks, have revealed further information regarding possible homicide.

“Based on our current knowledge, this is the first time that this specific information has been passed to the Met.”

The new investigation has been titled Operation Midland.

e2a: I think the list of names I sent out via PM sometime ago were about Dolphin Square.
 
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taffboy gwyrdd said:
The Methave just put out a very brief statement saying Operation Fairbank is now looking into homicide.
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Not surprised tbh, there was a rumour that those video tapes seized at Dover decades and destined for one of the usual suspects might have involved snuff stuff in the Netherlands.

Depraved bastards.
 
Cut and paste from another messageboard:

The (anonymous) individual who has made this (homicide) accusation has just been interviewed as the lead story on World At One. He didn't discuss the murder story, but claimed that he had been introduced by his father to a paedophile ring in the 70's which included top politicians, police and military men.
 
Notable that the OB feel the need to make this statement...

Police stress the homicide investigation, Operation Midland, is at an early stage. It is not thought that the alleged incident involved any of the senior politicians of three decades ago claimed to have been part of the paedophile ring.
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Early stage, but already enough evidence to speculate who is not involved, eh?:hmm:
 
In 1990 German Carole Kasir, who ran the guest house at the time of the allegations, was found dead in her flat at the age of 47.

The coroner's inquest concluded that, a diabetic, she had suffered an insulin overdose and had committed suicide.

However, there were claims that she had been murdered to stop her talking about what she knew.

The Yard said : “At this early stage in this inquiry, with much work still to do, it is not appropriate to issue appeals or reveal more information.

“Detectives from the Child Abuse Investigation Command are working closely with colleagues from the Homicide and Major Crime Command concerning this information, which is being looked at under the name of Operation Midland.”

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...-to-vip-paedophile-abuse-network-9861344.html
 
R5 playing the BBC "Nick" interview again now; very moving and a very brave man.

BBC journo said they had list of those identified by "Nick", but for obvious reasons they were not going to reveal, but they did say that the list included individuals who were "senior military and political figures' and some others that "Nick" described as "more important than that."

Hmmm
 
Police are investigating "possible homicide" linked to what has been described as a paedophile ring involving powerful people in the 1970s and 1980s.

By Tom Symonds
Home Affairs correspondent

14 November 2014 Last updated at 13:32


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30052726

The group is alleged to have included senior figures in public life, the military, politics and law enforcement.

In a statement Scotland Yard said inquiries were at an early stage.

A key witness who has spoken to police has told the BBC that he was abused for nine years as a boy.

He has appealed for others who may have evidence to come forward.

The Metropolitan Police said detectives were made aware of allegations regarding possible homicide during the last month.

The Met's statement said officers from its child abuse investigation command were working closely with colleagues from the homicide and major crime command.

"At this early stage in this inquiry, with much work still to do, it is not appropriate to issue appeals or reveal more information," the force said.

"We will not be giving a commentary as this inquiry develops, and it is important that officers are allowed to pursue their work without interference.

"We will not comment upon speculation as to the identity of any person or locations that may or may not feature in this inquiry."

'Very powerful people'

Speaking anonymously to the BBC but using the name "Nick", the alleged victim said he had given three days of video-taped evidence to detectives.

His accounts are being assessed as part of Operation Midland, a new Scotland Yard investigation which is under the umbrella of its inquiry into historical abuse, Operation Fairbank.

Nick, now in his 40s, says that he was first abused by his own father before being "handed over" as a young boy to the group.

"They were very powerful people and they controlled my life for the next nine years," Nick added.

"They created fear that penetrated every part of me, day in day out. You didn't question what they wanted, you did as they asked without question and the punishments were very severe."

Nick said the group was "very organised" and would arrange for chauffeur-driven cars to pick up boys, sometimes from school, and drive them to "parties" or "sessions" at locations including hotels and private apartments in London and other cities.

The children were not usually allowed to speak with each other and Nick says he struggled to work out the identities of the abusers. He has given the names of some of those he believes were involved to the police and the BBC.

'No fear'
The BBC has agreed not to reveal any of these names because of the ongoing police investigation and because of the need for further evidence to corroborate his account.

"They had no hesitation in doing what they wanted to do," Nick said. "Some of them were quite open about who they were. They had no fear at all of being caught, it didn't cross their mind."

When a child "stepped out of line", he said that abusers would inflict brutal and painful punishments.

He said: "[The abuse] destroyed my ability to trust. It's pretty much wrecked any relationships I have had. Intimacy for me is a pretty much a no-go area."

Nick said he had one motivation for speaking to the BBC - to encourage other alleged victims or those who unwittingly assisted the abusers to come forward.

"They need to find the strength that we as survivors have done," he said. "People who drove us around could come forward. Staff in some of the locations could come forward. There are so many people who must have had suspicions.

"We weren't smuggled in under a blanket through the back door. It was done openly and people must have questioned that and they need to come forward."

Nick says his torment suddenly came to an end when he went to a pre-arranged place to be picked up by a driver and no-one arrived.

He went the next day, worried that he would be punished for a diary mistake. Again there was no car waiting. He never saw his abusers again and says he still has no idea why.




**** here's hoping they're not lining up another Steve Messham / McAlpine scenario ****
 
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If this is true and there is no doubt it could be, then surely this sort of debased behaviour will have been going on for many many decades with elites, my friend who has fostered for many years says it is it endemic, that it goes back through families and maybe centuries.
 
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