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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

More than anything this shows the universal truth that once you start lying, it's difficult to stop.

Myself I'm waiting for any evidence at all that there is "military infrastructure" underneath eg. Al Shifa hospital. The Israeli government asserts shit like that all the time but never actually shows any evidence for it. What we get to see is a brand new paperback found in pristine condition in a bomb crater, and the days of the week re-imagined as terrorists' names. Which is especially weird since the days of the week are called the same in Arabic and Hebrew (named after numbers, first-day, second-day etc) so all you need to know is the alphabet.

It just seems like endless lies and propaganda, plus of course 5000 dead babies.

And counting.

The days of the week, for reference....
يَوم الأحَد
يَوم الإثنين
يَوم الثلاثاء
يَوم الأربعاء
يَوم الخميس
يَوم الجمعة
يَوم السبت
I heard a woman from the Red Crescent the other day mentioning the Hamas offer to international delegations to visit hospitals to check there are no military bases.
Not only has this offer not been taken up, the mass indiscriminate murder by the IDF of people in the open near the besieged hospitals is designed to preclude such a move. Nice…
 
He couldn’t answer a simple question. If he wasn’t so thick he could have easily tacked to the fact that Hamas are the directly elected representatives of the Palestinian people etc. but he didn’t because he’s none too bright…
It's not a simple question: it's a question that's based on fallacious reasoning and is commonly known as the complex question. It's also known as the "do you still beat your wife" question. In other words, it doesn't matter how the person being questioned responds; any answer that they give will be wrong in the eyes of the questioner. Morgan's 'questioning' is intended to make him and his monstrous ego the story rather than the Gazans who are dying in their thousands. He's not interested in answers or explanations. Morgan's underlying discourse is that anyone who advocates for justice for the Palestinian people is a 'terror sympathiser'.
 
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More bullshit:

:facepalm:

I watched the video so you don't have to.

My first thought was that the IDF had released some kind of spoof video by mistake. It's got real Day Today vibes about it, as our intrepid reporter Rear Admiral Dan Hagari walks about over-acting, pointing at random things and shouting SEE! THIS IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN TELLING YOU!

I LOL'd when, in the basement of the children's hospital, he finds a baby bottle and points at it exclaiming THIS IS EVIDENCE THAT HOSTAGES WERE HELD HERE!
Screenshot_20231114_092350_Samsung Internet.jpg

Besides a suspiciously neat pile of weapons there's no evidence that they've found anything other than a break room in the hospital basement where people had been sheltering.

But the shoddy nature of the video doesn't really matter to people who want to believe. The IDF have now released 'evidence' of a Hamas Command Centre in the Children's Hospital and if people are inclined to think that proves it then they probably will.
 
I think it's a mix of noise generation and disciplining. Any given report is completely nonsensical but the average passing cynic even will assume that some minor percentage of it must be true, even if the bulk is blatant propaganda. Also a good way to discipline Palestinians journalists/witnesses, especially along side the targetted killing of journalists - 'You can be all brave and speak up but a: we'll kill you and b: what difference does it make anyway? Our nonsense will attract the same level of attention as your reporting. Your voice is irrelevant.' Make testimony dangerous and seemingly irrelevant enough and people will stop offering it.
 

in case anyone is still in any doubt about whats happening...


Israeli minister says Israel no longer able to accept existence of Gaza, calls for 'voluntary emigration'​

A senior member of Benjamin Netanyahu’s government said on Tuesday Gaza could not survive as an independent entity, and Palestinians there should agree to “voluntary emigration” and leave for other countries.

Finance minister Bezalel Smotrich said “I welcome the initiative of the voluntary emigration of Gaza Arabs to countries around the world. This is the right humanitarian solution for the residents of Gaza and the entire region after 75 years of refugees, poverty and danger. The State of Israel will no longer be able to accept the existence of an independent entity in Gaza
 
It isn't a simple question. Hamas has two separate sections. A political wing that is called Hamas that does political and welfare activities mostly in Gaza, and a paramilitary wing that is called the Al Qassam Brigades that organises a mix of legitimate resistance to occupation and outright terrorism in both Gaza and the West Bank. So it just isn't a simple question if you actually know what Hamas is comprised of and all of what it does. The way that bastards such as Piers Morgan operate is that any attempt to introduce complexity beyond "everything covered by this label is bad and everything this other label applies to is good". Which is simple, easy to understand, and absolutely nothing to do with anything that happens on Planet Earth. Playing the game their way by trying to twist their simplistic mis-characterisations into a narrative that suits you just leads to adding to the level of fantasy over reality. Trying to stick to the complex realities doesn't look great at the time, but is better than twisting the truths for a short term win only to end up being hammered with it later when people see through the spin.
Very well expressed!
 
Yes, they can and will hide. The BBC is still describing Israel's genocide as an 'operation against Hamas' (direct quote from World Service this morning). There is a whole parallel universe here in which Israel's actions are self-defence and they are bravely attempting to crush an Islamist terror organisation. Keir Starmer has explicitly signed up to this parallel universe.
 
Yes, they can and will hide. The BBC is still describing Israel's genocide as an 'operation against Hamas'. There is a whole parallel universe here in which Israel's actions are self-defence and they are bravely attempting to crush an Islamist terror organisation. Keir Starmer has explicitly signed up to this parallel universe.
thats today....they are going to increasingly say out loud what it is already clear they are doing - mass ethnic cleansing... its about to become undeniable even to the willfully blinkered
 
thats today....they are going to increasingly say out loud what it is already clear they are doing - mass ethnic cleansing... its about to become undeniable even to the willfully blinkered
If anything they're doubling down right now at the BBC. Again from World Service this morning, there was a piece about burying dead babies and doctors risking their lives to do so in range of Israeli snipers (this being part of the 'operation against Hamas'). This piece was immediately followed by something of roughly equal length about the 19-year-old Israeli hostage who was killed in one of the bombings. This is the pattern across the BBC. Israeli dead are people while Palestinian dead are numbers.

Meanwhile, is there any analysis of the blatant lies from the IDF? Is there fuck. Not even mentioned.
 

in case anyone is still in any doubt about whats happening...


Israeli minister says Israel no longer able to accept existence of Gaza, calls for 'voluntary emigration'​

A senior member of Benjamin Netanyahu’s government said on Tuesday Gaza could not survive as an independent entity, and Palestinians there should agree to “voluntary emigration” and leave for other countries.

Finance minister Bezalel Smotrich said “I welcome the initiative of the voluntary emigration of Gaza Arabs to countries around the world. This is the right humanitarian solution for the residents of Gaza and the entire region after 75 years of refugees, poverty and danger. The State of Israel will no longer be able to accept the existence of an independent entity in Gaza
Smotrich, the self-described fascist homophobe. Top guy.
 
Not that I doubt ska invita at all but here's a link to a Reuters piece in which Smotrich is quoted:

Voluntary emigration sounds eerily reminiscent of the Monday Club's policy of "voluntary repatriation".
 
There seems to be a reliance on an idea that eventually a price can be named that Egypt will accept for either taking over administration of the remining land south of the river or taking in the populace, maybe once Hamas is considered "eliminated," but Cairo seems pretty set on not doing that.
 
What a week in France. 100k turned up on a demonstration called by the Government in defence of 'French values' and against anti-Semitism attended by National Rally and Zemmour's Reconquête. Interviewed on the march Zemmour claimed Muslim immigrants were the perpetrators of antisemitism.

Jewish film director Élie Chouraqui on TV backing Le Pen's National Rally

Ten French ambassadors in Muslim countries sign a 'note of dissent ' regarding Macron's position
 
thats today....they are going to increasingly say out loud what it is already clear they are doing - mass ethnic cleansing... its about to become undeniable even to the willfully blinkered
Funnily enough BBC Four TV have just started re-showing this

I suspect this is largely put together by PBS (WGBH) and was clearly an event to try to document "both sides" in 1998 - 50 years from the foundation of Israel as a state.
Interesting from episode 1 - General Marshal (of Marshal Plan fame) was totally opposed to declaring Israel as a separate state - but was bounced into accepting it by President Truman
other things I noted (as depicted) David Ben Gurion - founding Prime Minister was violently obsessive - and when he "retired" persistently undermined his successor as being too soft - eventually dispatching him and coming back out of retirement to run things because he didn't trust anyone else. Also Begin when he came to power was totally impossible to deal with.
It was stated that the six day war (1967) was the result of machinations by Soviet Prime Minister Kosygin trying to manipulate both Egypt and Syria into effective client states.
There was a lot of stuff about the Munich Olypics, Black September, and the PLO who seemed originally to have been much more violent than one remembers from Arafat's dotage.
The Palestinians tired a coup against King Hussein of Jordan, and when he chucked them out they completely devastated Beirut.

I've only seen the first 4 episodes - the only positive thing I saw was that nice President Carter, and his semi-hippy negotiating style in Camp David.
 
im glad they are being open about this - US and I guess UK politicians can't hide any more
More likely there will be a long period of quibbling, that it was just one minister who said it and that its not government policy, etc etc.

Although I dont entirely rule out that this stance will turn into a broader policy, for now its just in my 'never say never' category rather than something I expect to happen. It may also be floated out there as an extreme stance they can make use of to paint what they actually end up doing as 'more moderate' in comparison.
 
Tomorrow's vote in the Commons on a ceasefire will be interesting. There are 17 Labour frontbenchers who have signed an amendment calling for a ceasefire. Reports are saying that 'difficult conversations 'have been had between them and Labour whips. If the 17 hold their ground I wonder what Starmer and Labours HQ 's position is going to be ?

What do the Labour supporters on here think?
Do you know when that will be? My mp is Bridget Phillipson. I know she's in Starmers gang but I'm sure she is or was quite vocal about Palestine rights in the past. I might not be remembering correctly but I'm sure I recall that being one of the few good things about her.
 
Do you know when that will be? My mp is Bridget Phillipson. I know she's in Starmers gang but I'm sure she is or was quite vocal about Palestine rights in the past. I might not be remembering correctly but I'm sure I recall that being one of the few good things about her.
Afternoon I expect ?
 
Funnily enough BBC Four TV have just started re-showing this

I suspect this is largely put together by PBS (WGBH) and was clearly an event to try to document "both sides" in 1998 - 50 years from the foundation of Israel as a state.
Interesting from episode 1 - General Marshal (of Marshal Plan fame) was totally opposed to declaring Israel as a separate state - but was bounced into accepting it by President Truman
other things I noted (as depicted) David Ben Gurion - founding Prime Minister was violently obsessive - and when he "retired" persistently undermined his successor as being too soft - eventually dispatching him and coming back out of retirement to run things because he didn't trust anyone else. Also Begin when he came to power was totally impossible to deal with.
It was stated that the six day war (1967) was the result of machinations by Soviet Prime Minister Kosygin trying to manipulate both Egypt and Syria into effective client states.
There was a lot of stuff about the Munich Olypics, Black September, and the PLO who seemed originally to have been much more violent than one remembers from Arafat's dotage.
The Palestinians tired a coup against King Hussein of Jordan, and when he chucked them out they completely devastated Beirut.

I've only seen the first 4 episodes - the only positive thing I saw was that nice President Carter, and his semi-hippy negotiating style in Camp David.
I don't think it true to say that the PLO devastated Beirut.
 
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