Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[AnnO'Neemus]

It's not worth thinking about Tommy Robinson that much - he is insignificant thug who just echoes standard stuff about cutting taxes and Muslims. I would worry about slimeballs like Douglas Murray a bit more.

Douglas Murray's more familiar to the commentariat. I doubt your average thug who was shouting In-ger-la-and and brawling by the Cenotaph knows who he is. Tommy Robinson/Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is arguably far more significant in pub and locker room and staff break-room conversations and in terms of stirring up gangs of thugs to take to the streets and cause trouble. Underestimate his influence at your peril. Those thugs weren't following Douglas Murray on Saturday.

 

[ska invita]

Have to agree...I dont know who Douglas Murray is either
(have googled and still dont recognise)
Luckily the UK far right is broadly shit and undisciplined

 

[teqniq]

Interesting:

 

[teqniq]

Ripping the piss out of Israel's pathetic attempts at propaganda:

 

[The39thStep]

I won't claim to understand the complexities of this but it doesn't sit right with me tbh

Victim of rave massacre buried outside cemetery due to incomplete conversion to Judaism

https://archive.ph/lmz11

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Yeah it all falls down when you scratch the surface doesn’t it.

 

[Dystopiary]

Interesting:

That's all that's visible without signing into twitter or having some app or other.

 

[Dystopiary]

Yeah it all falls down when you scratch the surface doesn’t it.

What does?

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

That it’s anything other than a settler colonialist terror state, whose lines of bias are quite clear. They even treat their own victims as lesser.

 

[nino_savatte]

I won't claim to understand the complexities of this but it doesn't sit right with me tbh

Victim of rave massacre buried outside cemetery due to incomplete conversion to Judaism

https://archive.ph/lmz11

Ah, ethnic/racial absolutism: a key tenet of settler-colonialism.

 

[The39thStep]

I think this is an extremely informative and useful interview on where we are at and where it all might go

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Just noticed the IDF have stated no fighting inside the main Gaza Hospital, which means no Hamas. So how do they explain the fighters vanishing? Magic Carpets?
Murdering genocidal bastards

 

[elbows]

The cold lense of 'realism' comes across especially brutally at a time like this. Exhibit A, Jeremy Bowen of the BBC:

The Israelis knew this shift would come because this is a repeat of the pattern we have seen many times before with Israel's military operations. They talk about different clocks running during any operation.

One is military: how long do they need before they accomplish their military objectives? The other is diplomatic: how long does Israel hold legitimacy to carry out that operation before its allies say, "you've killed enough people, civilians, you need to stop now please."

Israel feels that because of the absolute enormity of the numbers of casualties in the Hamas attacks on 7 October, they have more time than usual, and I think they have gone in - as we can see from the levels of casualties in Gaza - using a great deal of force.

I have seen some estimates that suggest the Israel Defense Forces will continue to work in this way for a couple more weeks, but I think the forces are gathering among their allies to say you need to change the nature of your military operation.

That doesn't necessarily translate to a call for this to stop - certainly we haven't yet heard a call for a ceasefire from the British or the Americans.

From this article:

Bowen: Al-Shifa Hospital raid comes as tone shifts on Israel

Allies are starting to change their tune as Israeli troops enter Gaza's largest hospital.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[MickiQ]

Interesting:

Since Israel and even more importantly the United States haven't ratified the Rome Statute and don't recognise the ICC, this is clearly going nowhere I'm afraid

 

[Larry O'Hara]

The cold lense of 'realism' comes across especially brutally at a time like this. Exhibit A, Jeremy Bowen of the BBC:





From this article:

Bowen: Al-Shifa Hospital raid comes as tone shifts on Israel

Allies are starting to change their tune as Israeli troops enter Gaza's largest hospital.

www.bbc.co.uk

He is one of the least worst BBC reporters.

 

[elbows]

He is one of the least worst BBC reporters.

I didnt post it to have a go at him in particular, just to point out the realism framing and assocaited double-standards.

Bowen values his reputation but he still operates within a BBC foreign affairs framework (which also values its reputation as per the form of propaganda this country has specialised in for around 100 years).

Anyway in this case the cold lense of realism was supposed to be what I was sighing about, rather than its related propaganda specifically.

 

[teqniq]

The cold lense of 'realism' comes across especially brutally at a time like this. Exhibit A, Jeremy Bowen of the BBC:





From this article:

Bowen: Al-Shifa Hospital raid comes as tone shifts on Israel

Allies are starting to change their tune as Israeli troops enter Gaza's largest hospital.

www.bbc.co.uk

I have watched this and also live coverage of what is ongoing regarding the raid. It's fucking disgusting. They are desperate to find evidence of Hamas within the compound and have blown up some storage site, what exactly I don't recall, sorry:

What al-Shifa doctor told Israeli forces ahead of raid

Israel’s military has been calling doctors working inside Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital, where its been carrying out a raid.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I didnt post it to have a go at him in particular, just to point out the realism framing and assocaited double-standards.

Bowen values his reputation but he still operates within a BBC foreign affairs framework (which also values its reputation as per the form of propaganda this country has specialised in for around 100 years).

Anyway in this case the cold lense of realism was supposed to be what I was sighing about, rather than its related propaganda specifically.

Oh no I realise his dilemma: having watched him over the years I think he is quite good within those constraints. The gold standard was of course Robert Fisk

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I have watched this and also live coverage of what is ongoing regarding the raid. It's fucking disgusting. They are desperate to find evidence of Hamas within the compound and have blown up some storage site, what exactly I don't recall, sorry:

What al-Shifa doctor told Israeli forces ahead of raid

Israel’s military has been calling doctors working inside Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital, where its been carrying out a raid.

www.aljazeera.com

If they blew up oxygen cylinders could then claim they were bombs.

 

[teqniq]

Fisk in his heyday was good but unfortunately towards the end he became an abject apologist for Assad /derail

 

[RedRedRose]

Countries that have severed ties/withdrawn diplomats with Israel: Bolivia, South Africa, Turkey, Honduras, Chile, Jordan, Bahrain, Chad, Colombia.

Hopefully, to be followed by a few more.

Belize have followed suit.

Belize joins diplomatic backlash against Israel over Gaza bombardment

The Latin American country joins a growing list of states delivering diplomatic rebukes to Israel over its onslaught.

www.aljazeera.com

The prominence of Latin American countries is interesting, partly the number of leftist regimes there, partly a similar legacy of resisting colonialism, not to mention Israel supporting/arming rightist governments.

 

[toblerone3]

There is a phrase "human shield" that appears to be banned on this thread so much that after more than 7,000 posts no one has ever mentioned it. Its a big part of the debate. I just wondered what people's take was on it. Its surprising that it is not being discussed at all. Is the phrase just pure Israeli propoganda or is it some part of Hamas' military strategy.

EU nations condemn Hamas for what they describe as use of hospitals, civilians as 'human shields'

The 27 European Union nations have jointly condemned Hamas for what they described as the use of hospitals and civilians as “human shields” in the war against Israel.

apnews.com

What is a human shield and how has Hamas been accused of using them?

Israel claims group has placed command centre under hospital and is deliberately shielding behind Palestinian civilians

www.theguardian.com

 

[Pickman's model]

There is a phrase "human shield" that appears to be banned on this thread so much that after more than 7,000 posts no one has ever mentioned it. Its a big part of the debate. I just wondered what people's take was on it. Its surprising that it is not being discussed at all. Is the phrase just pure Israeli propoganda or is it some part of Hamas' military strategy.

EU nations condemn Hamas for what they describe as use of hospitals, civilians as 'human shields'

The 27 European Union nations have jointly condemned Hamas for what they described as the use of hospitals and civilians as “human shields” in the war against Israel.

apnews.com

What is a human shield and how has Hamas been accused of using them?

Israel claims group has placed command centre under hospital and is deliberately shielding behind Palestinian civilians

www.theguardian.com

View attachment 400163

You just need to search the thread for 'shields' and you'll find the term used on a number of occasions.

 

[JimW]

Fisk in his heyday was good but unfortunately towards the end he became an abject apologist for Assad /derail

I thought it had been shown he was always a bit Laurie Penny-esque inventing informants even back in the day but it wasn't obvious as he was writing more plausibly overall. /more derail

 

[toblerone3]

You just need to search the thread for 'shields' and you'll find the term used on a number of occasions.

Yes five times

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes five times

So no one has mentioned it five times. Rather different to your no one has mentioned it at all.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What's your point, caller?

I haven't seen any evidence that Hamas has been using hospitals as human shields and there have been plenty of voices from inside Gaza, for example from Medicine without Borders, Red Crescent and UN medical staff, saying that they are not.

The IDF, meanwhile, has so far produced only obviously fabricated bullshit to support the idea.

 

[emanymton]

What's your point, caller?

I haven't seen any evidence that Hamas has been using hospitals as human shields and there have been plenty of voices from inside Gaza, for example from Medicine without Borders, Red Crescent and UN medical staff, saying that they are not.

The IDF, meanwhile, has so far produced only obviously fabricated bullshit to support the idea.

I don't care if they are or not it still does justify bombing a hospital.

I have never really got the human shields argument as even if if true it will still always be morally worse to bomb human shields than to use them.

 

[YouSir]

Anyone know when these ceasefire vote is tonight? Not that it makes a world of difference but interested to see who stands up to Starmer.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't care if they are or not it still does justify bombing a hospital.

I have never really got the human sheilds argument as even if if true it will still always be morally worse to bomb human sheilds than to use them.

Absolutely. If there are half a dozen Hamas fighters hiding in the basement, does that justify killing everyone in the building?