Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[teqniq]

Looks like the fire it still pretty vigorous, wonder what the chance of structural collapse is?

Engineer on site of huge London flat fire in case of building collapse

 

[Lurdan]

Looks like the fire it still pretty vigorous, wonder what the chance of structural collapse is?

About half an hour ago the Fire Brigade said this wasn't yet a concern, and firecrew were still inside, however I see flames have just appeared again on one side of the building

 

[ElizabethofYork]

The guy on the BBC said he was woken up by the smell of burning plastic.

 

[Ax^]

fucking hell

woke up to witness reports on the BBC

poor people

 

[1927]

Looks like the fire it still pretty vigorous, wonder what the chance of structural collapse is?

It'll be fine, the CIA haven't been anywhere near it!

 

[Cid]

The web page for Harley Facades appears to state they also manufacture but I may not be reading it correctly. However if materials were supplied by Harley Curtain Wall, the company which was wound up, I guess the question would be whether, and to what extent, Harley Facades had acquired their liabilities as well as their assets. As the similar company names imply the same guy is behind both of them.

ETA: a more detailed account of the winding up of Harley Curtain Wall here
Crowborough company goes into administration - Crowborough Life

They're a contractor that supplies a system. They might manufacture part of it, but they certainly won't be making things like window glass, insulation, panels etc.

 

[Ax^]

really don't get the no centralised fire alarm system

 

[ElizabethofYork]

really don't get the no centralised fire alarm system

No. And just one stairwell for the whole tower.

 

[Teaboy]

really don't get the no centralised fire alarm system

Me neither in a block of this height. I suppose you could argue that having everyone's alarm go off every time someone burns their toast would be a real pain but still.

 

[Teaboy]

No. And just one stairwell for the whole tower.

Well that's just the design of an old building. Unfortunately when a lot of these blocks were built post-war there was little consideration to fire or insulation etc. Obviously there are things that can be done later but additional stairwells is not one of them.

 

[Cid]

Me neither in a block of this height. I suppose you could argue that having everyone's alarm go off every time someone burns their toast would be a real pain but still.

Can you have a kitchen fire alarm, then a separate fire alarm in a hallway? I think that's how it works in my flat. Certainly the one in the kitchen looks pretty conventional, while the one in the hall looks quite industrial and linked in. I remember as a student we had them in each room. Every fucking night, I mean it's like they thought their no smoking signs would work or something.

 

[ChrisD]

Ronan point disaster changed attitudes and policy to new build tower blocks
significantly at the end of the 1960s. This will have even greater consequences in relation to insulation upgrading and people's attitude to high rise living. Awful way to learn.

 

[souljacker]

Expect a lot of company directors fucking off to sunny climes before it gets too hot for their liking at home!

I thought the law had changed on this and they can now be done for Manslaughter or corporate homicide. Whether that is extraditable is possibly a different question.

 

[19force8]

Well that's just the design of an old building. Unfortunately when a lot of these blocks were built post-war there was little consideration to fire or insulation etc. Obviously there are things that can be done later but additional stairwells is not one of them.

not "post war" 1974!

E2A According to V Derbyshire an hour ago.

 

[skyscraper101]

Well that's just the design of an old building. Unfortunately when a lot of these blocks were built post-war there was little consideration to fire or insulation etc. Obviously there are things that can be done later but additional stairwells is not one of them.

Could they have put fire escape stairs on the outside? They seem to be standard in the USA on old high rises?

 

[1927]

Me neither in a block of this height. I suppose you could argue that having everyone's alarm go off every time someone burns their toast would be a real pain but still.

Thats not what centralised alarm system does. Fire starts on 4th floor, they should have an alarm available that will alert everyone in building that they can activate, the lack of one is almost certainly criminal!

 

[EastEnder]

Me neither in a block of this height. I suppose you could argue that having everyone's alarm go off every time someone burns their toast would be a real pain but still.

Where I am - admittedly a tiny building by comparison - each flat has its own internal smoke/fire alarms, which are not connected to anyone else's. Then there's a communal fire alarm that covers the shared areas / stairwell. So you can burn toast with impunity, it only sets off the communal stuff if the smoke makes it out of an individual flat.

 

[MrSki]

Me neither in a block of this height. I suppose you could argue that having everyone's alarm go off every time someone burns their toast would be a real pain but still.

Not a smoke alarm but a fire alarm to alert the whole building.

 

[Teaboy]

not "post war" 1974!

E2A According to V Derbyshire an hour ago.

Well that's still post-war sort off, its a catch all phrase. But yeah, there were still very few building regs in the 70's.

 

[Teaboy]

Thats not what centralised alarm system does. Fire starts on 4th floor, they should have an alarm available that will alert everyone in building that they can activate, the lack of one is almost certainly criminal!

Sure, internal fit-out was never my thing.

Is it criminal though? Is there a legal obligation? My block of flats doesn't have one and its pretty new (circa 2001). This is a lot bigger mind.

 

[agricola]

Where I am - admittedly a tiny building by comparison - each flat has its own internal smoke/fire alarms, which are not connected to anyone else's. Then there's a communal fire alarm that covers the shared areas / stairwell. So you can burn toast with impunity, it only sets off the communal stuff if the smoke makes it out of an individual flat.

Same here, though then again I have never heard it tested.

 

[Teaboy]

This has already got the feeling of multiple fuck-ups.

 

[Idris2002]

This has already got the feeling of multiple fuck-ups.

You don't say.

Theresa May aide 'sat on' report warning tower blocks were vulnerable to fire

 

[EastEnder]

Police confirm 6 fatalities so far...

 

[brogdale]

You don't say.

Theresa May aide 'sat on' report warning tower blocks were vulnerable to fire

Barwell is unfit for any public office.

 

[bimble]

This will probably lead to significant tightening of the law, probably took something like this to do so. I don't know what the rules are but we have nothing in my block apart from a smoke alarm in the stairwell (old building converted to flats) .

 

[Teaboy]

Between 400-600 people living there according to the BBC. Oh god, this could be catastrophic.

 

[Teaboy]

You don't say.

Theresa May aide 'sat on' report warning tower blocks were vulnerable to fire

That looks pretty damming. If the recommendation was there for sprinklers then why not install them? Can only be one reason I guess.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Police has confirmed six deaths so far, but this figure is likely to increase.

 

[Brainaddict]

No, it doesn't sound like the residents were happy with the work being done. from the kctmo website - "KCTMO is managed by a Board of Directors comprising of eight elected tenant and leaseholder members, four appointed Councillor members and three independent appointed other members."

Who are the 3 independent board members?

fucking horrific.

This is a very political matter, and we may now partly be seeing the results of decisions where the deciders just didn't care enough. I know the guy who runs London Federation of Housing Co-ops, which includes TMOs (Tenant Management Orgs). For those who don't know, a TMO is similar to a co-op in that it is a democratic structure, but a housing co-op owns its own properties, while a TMO just has a management arrangement. He told me a couple of years ago that everyone who is a fan of co-ops and TMOs thought (and tried to tell) K&C that they were fucking up by putting ALL their properties into the same TMO. A simple democratic structure like that would be appropriate for one block or maybe a few next to each other. The idea you can maintain genuine democratic control when you put all the borough's property in one TMO is absurd. You could try to create some federated structure I suppose, but they didn't. So they ended up with something that was meant to be democratically controlled by couldn't be, thereby losing both the full council oversight and the democratic advantage of TMOs. Basically the democratic element was tokenism - the borough didn't care that it wouldn't work.