Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

I think they've got the dates wrong - looks to me as if the company which supplied these materials had bought out the one which went into receivership before this contract began.

It's an ALMO (Arms Length Management Organisation) set up by the Council which - I think uniquely - has adopted the legal form of a TMO (Tenant's Management Organisation). Actual tenant control of the organisation appears to be minimal however. I'm a little curious myself about exactly how they've structured this, but it's not a tenant run organisation in any meaningful sense.

No, it doesn't sound like the residents were happy with the work being done. from the kctmo website - "KCTMO is managed by a Board of Directors comprising of eight elected tenant and leaseholder members, four appointed Councillor members and three independent appointed other members."

Who are the 3 independent board members?

fucking horrific.
 
Terrible scenes. I can't imagine anything more terrifying.

As someone who used to work in external cladding / facades I'm struggling to understand what has happened here. No cladding panel is combustible and there should have been firestopping at every floor level. Being an old building the internal firestopping would have been basic in all likelihood.

The bottom line is that this sort of thing should never happen, any fire should not have spread at this speed and ferocity.

Are you for real? The flammability of aluminium composite cladding has been a major concern for years.
 
it didn't take long tbf. Someone is responsible for this and they allowed the building to be a fire risk. So people are dead or homeless so some cunt could have a few more quid in their pocket.
Absolutely - but that's why we look to government to ensure building standards and safety regulations are sufficient and adhered to. We can - and should - punish whoever was directly responsible, but there's a whole load of questions need asking about the regulatory & inspections framework that can allow something like this to happen.
 
Are you for real? The flammability of aluminium composite cladding has been a major concern for years.

Worked in the industry for years. I know all about the various fire rating of panels. What specifically have I said which you think is wrong?
 
Poor people :(

No central alarm system, no sprinkler system and only one staircase. How the fuck is that legal?

Horrific

I've just got back from a meeting, which involved an architect & a fire safety expert, they were saying regulations don't require the retrofitting of sprinkler systems or most other fire safety measures to older buildings to bring them up to current safety standards. :mad:

Just found this link:
Which councils are retrofitting high rises with sprinklers? | Analysis | Inside Housing

Six years ago this month, three women and three children lost their lives in a devastating fire at Lakanal House in London. Less than 12 months later, two firefighters died in another high-rise tragedy at Shirley Towers in Southampton.

At both inquests into these two fatal fires in local authority tower blocks, the coroners used their Rule 43 letters – recommendations to prevent future deaths – to say that social landlords should consider retrofitting sprinklers in high-rise blocks.

The reason is clear: sprinklers save lives. Nobody has died in a fire in the UK at a property with ‘a properly installed sprinkler system working the way it’s meant to’, says Keith Brooks, head of prevention and protection at Cheshire Fire and Rescue Service and deputy spokesperson on sprinklers for the Chief Fire Officers Association (CFOA). Fires in tower blocks are more dangerous for firefighters, he adds, and sprinklers help keep them safe by controlling fire growth, keeping escape routes tenable and mitigating against ‘unseen’ risks such as tangled cables, which were highlighted as an issue during the inquest into the deaths of firefighters at Shirley Towers.

‘CFOA would obviously like to see the number of high-rise blocks with sprinklers increase,’ says Mr Brooks.

Yet an investigation by Inside Housing has found that, to date, only 13% of stock-holding councils in England with high-rise accommodation have sprinklers within any of their tower block flats.

The law
Building regulations in England require sprinklers to be installed to flats in new residential blocks over 30 metres in height. In Scotland, sprinklers are required in new blocks above 18 metres.

Wales has required sprinklers in buildings such as new and converted care homes, hostels and halls of residence of any height since April 2014. All new or converted homes must have sprinklers from January 2016.

There is no requirement to retrofit sprinklers to existing high-rise blocks.
 
Worked in the industry for years. I know all about the various fire rating of panels. What specifically have I said which you think is wrong?
You stated that no cladding is combustible! Apologies if I misunderstood.
 
The original company was Harley Curtain Wall, the successor is Harley Facades but I think I may be wrong about when the sale of the former's assets took place.

Harley are a subbie, or at least were. They would have been the installer and possibly the system designer, unlikely to be the panel manufacturer.
 
You stated that no cladding is combustible! Apologies if I misunderstood.

I used the word carefully.

Virtually anything will burn if the temperature is high enough. Combustibility and contribution to spread of flames is what fire regs is all about. The panel will have been fire rated but I'm keen to understand what rating it is because the photos are pretty unbelievable, the panels look charred this morning which still suggests lack of fire stopping behind the panels to me, which if true is absolutely criminal.

The panel should have been a minimum of Class O (iirc) against spread of flames. Clearly the flames have spread so either they've used a dodgy panel or the firestopping strategy has failed, or both.
 
I used the word carefully.

Virtually anything will burn if the temperature is high enough. Combustibility and contribution to spread of flames is what fire regs is all about. The panel will have been fire rated but I'm keen to understand what rating it is because the photos are pretty unbelievable, the panels look charred this morning which still suggests lack of fire stopping behind the panels to me, which if true is absolutely criminal.

The panel should have been a minimum of Class O (iirc) against spread of flames. Clearly the flames have spread so either they've used a dodgy panel or the firestopping strategy has failed, or both.
I found this in the product info....

"FIRE PERFORMANCE.

None of the components in the Spanwall RF 50 support combustion, and the use of a rockwool insulation will mean the total installation will be fire safe and comply with a Class O surface spread of flame.

If fire stopping is required the design team should consult a specialist supplier such as Siderise Ltd, for design and product advice."

This suggests that the product alone does not provide fire stopping!!!!

All the witnesses being interviewed are mentioning the cladding, it seems that something well dodgy has happened here. Expect a lot of company directors fucking off to sunny climes before it gets too hot for their liking at home!
 
Here's the spec of materials used externally:

External Finishes Schedule

Planning Material Samples

Ah a Reynobond cassette system. Thanks for the link.

A very widespread used system. Assuming that what was actually used and the contractor didn't change the panel at the last minute then it has to be something to do with the firestopping. Either that or the entire testing regime has missed something.

This is just utterly desperate. Some reports that the fire brigade may have been a bit slow to arrive as well. All those cuts Boris Johnson instigated need to be looked at very carefully.
 
Just heard on the radio a resident who escaped being woken up by shouting outside of "Don't jump don't jump" A fucking nightmare. It would have taken my a while to realise it wasn't.
 
fuck that is horrible.

i lived in a tower bloc until recently. We had a fire when sofas were left in the entrance hall and not cleared - and some wanker set light to them.
We were woken by the fire brigade at 3am and told to stay put. The hallways were full of smoke but inside the flats was fine, one bloke had to be treated for smoke inhalation after he left this flat to check on a neighbour - but everyone else was ok. The ground floor was completely fucked - it was a very fierce hot blaze - but it didn't spread.
I dont understand how this fire spread through the whole bloc and so quickly - it looks like their have been some serious fuck ups with fire safety. I cant recall of a fire in a residential building this serious - certainly not in a tower bloc.
 
I found this in the product info....

"FIRE PERFORMANCE.

None of the components in the Spanwall RF 50 support combustion, and the use of a rockwool insulation will mean the total installation will be fire safe and comply with a Class O surface spread of flame.

If fire stopping is required the design team should consult a specialist supplier such as Siderise Ltd, for design and product advice."

This suggests that the product alone does not provide fire stopping!!!!

All the witnesses being interviewed are mentioning the cladding, it seems that something well dodgy has happened here.

It certainly does.

As it states the system itself is not combustible but it is not in itself a firestopping product, it will need to be integrated into the wider firestopping strategy.
 
Harley are a subbie, or at least were. They would have been the installer and possibly the system designer, unlikely to be the panel manufacturer.
The web page for Harley Facades appears to state they also manufacture but I may not be reading it correctly. However if materials were supplied by Harley Curtain Wall, the company which was wound up, I guess the question would be whether, and to what extent, Harley Facades had acquired their liabilities as well as their assets. As the similar company names imply the same guy is behind both of them.

ETA: a more detailed account of the winding up of Harley Curtain Wall here
Crowborough company goes into administration - Crowborough Life
 
Last edited:
[QUOTE="Kaka Tim, post: 15110215, member: 264" I cant recall of a fire in a residential building this serious - certainly not in a tower bloc.[/QUOTE]

Lakanal House is the last one I remember.
 
Back
Top Bottom