Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Steel Icarus]

This chap on BBC live giving tons of info.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Copied from Mrs Magpie:

Attention West London people!

The residents who escaped Grenfell House only have the clothes they stand up in, mainly nightclothes at that. There is an urgent need for clothes to fit all ages, toiletries, toys etc. Please take donations to
St Clement's Church.
95 Sirdar Road,
London,
W11 4EQ

Appreciate you're just passing on the message, but is there any word (or any way of finding out) how long they'll be open? I have a couple of coats at work that I'd been saving for the annual coat collection in November, but could run them along this evening if they'd be of use.

Have also shared on Facebook, hopefully others can help.

 

[dessiato]

Copied from Mrs Magpie:

Attention West London people!

The residents who escaped Grenfell House only have the clothes they stand up in, mainly nightclothes at that. There is an urgent need for clothes to fit all ages, toiletries, toys etc. Please take donations to
St Clement's Church.
95 Sirdar Road,
London,
W11 4EQ

Cut and pasted to facebook.

 

[killer b]

At the risk of bringing politics into it, would that have anything to do with cuts to the fire services from a few years back?

It is political. Effective safety regimes and preventative, responsive emergency services need to be well resourced. If something like this happens, it's because of these things being poorly resourced & funded - there's a reason why it looks like third world shit.

The more you read & think about this, the more shock turns to rage tbh.

 

[Steel Icarus]

stop filming him ffs

 

[Steel Icarus]

Lovely BBC reporter, a proper human reaction, giving him a hug. This is so distressing to see.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Up-to-the-minute info on survivor support/donations/volunteer coordination etc on this Facebook page:

Log in to Facebook | Facebook

 

[Lord Camomile]

Appreciate you're just passing on the message, but is there any word (or any way of finding out) how long they'll be open? I have a couple of coats at work that I'd been saving for the annual coat collection in November, but could run them along this evening if they'd be of use.

Have also shared on Facebook, hopefully others can help.

Just seen this is all over Twitter, will try and get some details from there

 

[Indeliblelink]

Dreadful scenes, thoughts go out to all those involved.
Spookily, I was woken up last night by a crackling noise and bright flashes from sparks coming from a plug under my bed where I had a strip socket with a lamp (not turned on) plugged in. It stopped after a few seconds and I just rolled over and thought to myself "I'll see what's wrong with it tomorrow".

 

[Teaboy]

Terrible scenes. I can't imagine anything more terrifying.

As someone who used to work in external cladding / facades I'm struggling to understand what has happened here. No cladding panel is combustible and there should have been firestopping at every floor level. Being an old building the internal firestopping would have been basic in all likelihood.

The bottom line is that this sort of thing should never happen, any fire should not have spread at this speed and ferocity.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[DaveCinzano]

From the Grenfell Action Group blog, 2015:

In a recent door-knocking survey carried out by concerned Grenfell Tower residents we found that 39% of households had not had the HIU work done and we believe that approx 46 households are actively resisting work being carried out as currently planned.

We are also aware that a significant number of residents who have allowed the work to be done are not satisfied with the standard of the work delivered by Rydon and many claim they felt bullied into having the work done by the TMO in the first place.

GRENFELL TOWER – Propaganda, Lies and Fact

 

[Fingers]

The blog owner was on the 16th floor and only just got out.

 

[Cid]

That's the rain screen - as that page also says


The descriptions of the work by the architects and the contractors refer to external insulation being fitted as well as these aluminium panels.

As it says in the link the rain screen is a system; it includes cladding panels, insulation, windows and er... fire barriers. The external panels are ACM.

 

[peterkro]

Terrible scenes. I can't imagine anything more terrifying.

As someone who used to work in external cladding / facades I'm struggling to understand what has happened here. No cladding panel is combustible and there should have been firestopping at every floor level. Being an old building the internal firestopping would have been basic in all likelihood.

The bottom line is that this sort of thing should never happen, any fire should not have spread at this speed and ferocity.

Coincidently there was a program on Radio 4 yesterday where they were at a fire testing station and they described the testing of cladding, it appears very thorough and it's hard to believe something flammable would get past that test.Mind you according to the Guardian the manufacturer of the cladding has gone out of business.

 

[no-no]

This KCTMO, how does that work? it's run by the tennants themselves but it's also a private company?

 

[Rebelda]

There have been a few block fires here recently and they scared the crap out of me even though they did terrible damage but were contained to one flat. This is...it won't fit in my head or my heart. Those poor poor people

 

[Teaboy]

As it says in the link the rain screen is a system; it includes cladding panels, insulation, windows and er... fire barriers. The external panels are ACM.

Hmmm. Rainscreen is a ventilated cladding system meaning there is a ventilation cavity between the panels and substrate (main building fabric). Curtain walling also sits outboard of the substrate. Building regulations dictate that there should be intumesent firestopping at each floor level to prevent the fire shooting up the ventilation cavity. Something as has gone very badly wrong here if the cladding system has contributed to the spread of flames.

ETA: ACM panels are aluminium composite, they absolutely should be fire rated. If the new facade had contributed to the spread of flames its going to be the firestopping in the cavity rather than the panels themselves.

 

[Cid]

Terrible scenes. I can't imagine anything more terrifying.

As someone who used to work in external cladding / facades I'm struggling to understand what has happened here. No cladding panel is combustible and there should have been firestopping at every floor level. Being an old building the internal firestopping would have been basic in all likelihood.

The bottom line is that this sort of thing should never happen, any fire should not have spread at this speed and ferocity.

A specific type of ACM product was apparently behind fires in Dubai. I have no idea what the law/standard practice is here though.

But yeah, the speed is horrifying. This should not have happened.

 

[Teaboy]

Coincidently there was a program on Radio 4 yesterday where they were at a fire testing station and they described the testing of cladding, it appears very thorough and it's hard to believe something flammable would get past that test.Mind you according to the Guardian the manufacturer of the cladding has gone out of business.

Do you have a link to that? Which panel is it?

 

[Maharani]

Devastating.

 

[Athos]

Shocked, sad, and angry. Thoughts with the families of the dead, and the survivors. Hope there's something practical we can do to provide immediate help, and something political.

 

[phillm]

One can easily posit Kensington and Chelsea , social housing , run down the block , get the tenants out , do an Elephant aand Castle. If so these are now murdering bastards.

 

[Lurdan]

Mind you according to the Guardian the manufacturer of the cladding has gone out of business.

I think they've got the dates wrong - looks to me as if the company which supplied these materials had bought out the one which went into receivership before this contract began.
ETA: actually I think I might be wrong about that.

This KCTMO, how does that work? it's run by the tennants themselves but it's also a private company?

It's an ALMO (Arms Length Management Organisation) set up by the Council which - I think uniquely - has adopted the legal form of a TMO (Tenant's Management Organisation). Actual tenant control of the organisation appears to be minimal however. I'm a little curious myself about exactly how they've structured this, but it's not a tenant run organisation in any meaningful sense.

 

[DotCommunist]

It is political. Effective safety regimes and preventative, responsive emergency services need to be well resourced. If something like this happens, it's because of these things being poorly resourced & funded - there's a reason why it looks like third world shit.

The more you read & think about this, the more shock turns to rage tbh.

it didn't take long tbf. Someone is responsible for this and they allowed the building to be a fire risk. So people are dead or homeless so some cunt could have a few more quid in their pocket.


those poor bastards...

 

[Teaboy]

Just reading the live blog now on the Guardian website. People saying the cladding panels went up like mathsticks. Fucking hell, what were they using? Painted plywood?

There is sadly a lot of corner cutting in construction, there is even a fancy name for it - value engineering. It basically means finding cheaper alternatives for everything the architect and engineer has specified.

 

[teqniq]

So reading the stuff from Teaboy how on earth could it have spread so quickly?

E2a it seems you have answered my question.

 

[1927]

with the "Stay put" policy there aren't audible alarms to trigger an evacuation.

Like i said earlier a stay put policy is only appropriate if there are other fire control measures in place. To tell people to stay put, in a building that can be totally engulfed in fire within an hour is negligent beyond belief, and it makes me wonder whether the stay put policy was put in place to save money on an integrated alarm system!

 

[1927]

No central alarm system, no sprinkler system and only one staircase. How the fuck is that legal?

Horrific

It almost certainly isn't!

 

[Teaboy]

I think they've got the dates wrong - looks to me as if the company which supplied these materials had bought out the one which went into receivership before this contract began.

Who are the companies involved?