Greek Parliamentary Election

[nino_savatte]

A silly blog from the Torygraph's Tim Stanley

Meanwhile, the fate of poor Greece lies not with its voters but the German consumers and the EU politburo. The German foreign minister said after hearing the election results, “There can't be substantial changes in the [austerity plan]. But I can imagine we'll discuss again a delay.” The message: “Give us the government we want, and we’ll negotiate.” Would it have extended such kindness to a Syriza government? And what fiscal or political weaponry would it use to bring it to heel? Given how much the concerns of the EU have towered over the democratic decision making of the Greeks, it’s hard not to see comparisons with the choice that the Soviet Union put to the Polish in the early 1980s: “Stick with communism, comrades, or we’ll crush you.”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...ndemocratic-eu-is-going-the-way-of-communism/

"EU politburo"? Fucks sake.

 

[nino_savatte]

I reckon that this new election will not fix anything for very long at all.

You cannot borrow your way out of all this debt.

I wish all these politicians would just give up trying to fix what cannot be fixed and let the banks go down the tubes, then we could start again with new ones, having ditched all the debts of the old ones when they went bust.

Giles..

Nice to see you offering that stale old cliché.

 

[butchersapron]

yep. they don't seem to get it at all.

Is there any statistics showing the breakdown of demographics, income, region, etc of the fash vote over there butchers?

Best i can do for now is, if you click on their link on the right side here, it'll take you to a regional breakdown of their votes this time round, but this needs to be then matched to the economic profiles of the areas - generally accepted it's in hard hit urban areas with high immigration though - but those who had some sort of relatively privileged stake in society: coppers, shopkeepers, small business types. But that might just be me following all those clueless commentators!

 

[extra dry]

The way it looks like 100 billion euros last around 6 months. Greece will be deserted by the middle of next year the only people left will be those who can't afford to leave and the ones who choose to stay. The wages are going to fall 10-15% due to the bail out repayments, I think that is the case. Anyway I would not like to be a teenager, old or ill right now in Greece.

 

[frogwoman]

Best i can do for now is, if you click on their link on the right side here, it'll take you to a regional breakdown of their votes this time round, but this needs to be then matched to the economic profiles of the areas - generally accepted it's in hard hit urban areas with high immigration though - but those who had some sort of relatively privileged stake in society: coppers, shopkeepers, small business types. But that might just be me following all those clueless commentators!

thanks, bloody hell 10.9% in some places.

 

[mauvais]

I'm pleased to see that the Greeks have somehow voted for Brian from Spaced.

 

[Giles]

Nice to see you offering that stale old cliché.

So, you believe that lending the Greek "government" squillions more Euros, just so they can use them to make the next few loan repayments on their massive debts, will solve their problems, then?

The Greeks should tell the rest of Euroland to f off, that they are not going to pay anyone anything, and then start from scratch.

Giles..

 

[JimW]

Best i can do for now is, if you click on their link on the right side here, it'll take you to a regional breakdown of their votes this time round, but this needs to be then matched to the economic profiles of the areas - generally accepted it's in hard hit urban areas with high immigration though - but those who had some sort of relatively privileged stake in society: coppers, shopkeepers, small business types. But that might just be me following all those clueless commentators!

Crete seems solidly left/liberal, must be well-brought up kids and grandkids of the partisans.

 

[Fedayn]

Where's papageorgiou to tell us that the KKE is the real winner......

 

[nino_savatte]

So, you believe that lending the Greek "government" squillions more Euros, just so they can use them to make the next few loan repayments on their massive debts, will solve their problems, then?

The Greeks should tell the rest of Euroland to f off, that they are not going to pay anyone anything, and then start from scratch.

Giles..

Thanks for putting words into my mouth. But your solution is to offer people the same old Social Darwinian shite. The maxim "You cannot spend your way out of debt" is predicated on the notion that domestic finances and a state's finances are similar, if not the same. That's absurd. I cannot get preferential rates of interest on a loan. A state can. Without spending money, an economy cannot grow. You simply cannot wait for "The Invisible Hand" to come along and make everything all right. It's a little like pulling out your teeth in the hope that the tooth fairy will come along and leave a couple of quid under your pillow.

 

[Fedayn]

Not the worst look at the votes i've seen here.... And from the Grauniad

 

[LLETSA]

Syriza getting on with playing the role of opposition who can therefore stay true to their promises and beliefs by not having to deliver them

Which is all that 'socialism' means now. It has had its day. It is mere protest with nothing concrete to offer (mostly because what is offered is impossible to implement: capital has the political system entirely sewn up.) It is dead. People sense this and hence won't vote for it in large enough numbers even in a severe crisis like this one. The crisis will likely get worse and spread and maybe a minority left government will be swept to power in new elections. Together, capital, the EU and other governments will destroy them and they'll end up hated even by their own voters. And protest on the streets, while maybe satisfying to the protestors, will not deliver an alternative to capitalism either. Nor strikes, occupations etc.

There is no way out. Increasingly decrepit capitalism is the future. And when that goes, as it inevitably will, we'll get something worse.

 

[Roadkill]

Paul Krugman, talking his usual good sense.

Which brings us to Sunday’s Greek election, which ended up settling nothing. The governing coalition may have managed to stay in power, although even that’s not clear (the junior partner in the coalition is threatening to defect). But the Greeks can’t solve this crisis anyway.

The only way the euro might — might — be saved is if the Germans and the European Central Bank realize that they’re the ones who need to change their behavior, spending more and, yes, accepting higher inflation. If not — well, Greece will basically go down in history as the victim of other people’s hubris.

 

[dennisr]

Which is all that 'socialism' means now. It has had it's day. It is mere protest with nothing concrete to offer (mostly because what is offered is impossible to implement: capital has the political system entirely sewn up.) It is dead. People sense this and hence won't vote for it in large enough numbers even in a severe crisis like this one. The crisis will likely get worse and spread and maybe a minority left government will be swept to power in new elections. Together, capital, the EU and other governments will destroy them and they'll end up hated even by their own voters. And protest on the streets, while maybe satisfying to the protestors, will not deliver an alternative to capitalism either. Nor strikes, occupations etc.

There is no way out. Increasingly decrepit capitalism is the future. And when that goes, as it inevitably will, we'll get something worse.

"we are all doomed, doomed i say"

 

[DownwardDog]

I cannot get preferential rates of interest on a loan. A state can.

You can almost certainly borrow money cheaper than Greece can.

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GGGB10YR:IND

 

[nino_savatte]

You can almost certainly borrow money cheaper than Greece can.

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GGGB10YR:IND

But I don't get 50 years to pay it off. Terms for nation-states are favourable compared to a loans from high street lenders. I can't play the bond markets either.

 

[DownwardDog]

But I don't get 50 years to pay it off. Terms for nation-states are favourable compared to a loans from high street lenders. I can't play the bond markets either.

Neither does Greece, 20 year bonds are the longest maturity they issue and those pay 22%!

It depends on the nation state. Greece and Venezuela can't borrow as cheaply as the average UK mortgage holder over a 10 or 20 year period.

 

[Giles]

If countries just lived within their means, in terms of only spending the money that they take in taxes, they wouldn't get into this mess in the first place.

Whoever thought it a good idea to regularly spend more on government projects and social programs than you actually make in taxation?

Giles..

 

[butchersapron]

Oh for gods sake. We're getting lectured on economics by someone who thinks state economies operate on the same basic as household economies and who has no idea what the paradox of thrift is.

 

[dennisr]

If countries just lived within their means, in terms of only spending the money that they take in taxes, they wouldn't get into this mess in the first place.

Whoever thought it a good idea to regularly spend more on government projects and social programs than you actually make in taxation?

Giles..

troll bore

 

[Divisive Cotton]

If countries just lived within their means, in terms of only spending the money that they take in taxes, they wouldn't get into this mess in the first place.

Whoever thought it a good idea to regularly spend more on government projects and social programs than you actually make in taxation?

Just about every country in Europe.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Fuck Off giles with your pompous lectures about economic piety.

People in Greece are facing dire dire poverty, people will die becasue they cant get medicines, people are being reduced to destitution in their thousands - through no fault of their own.

You arguing for more and more of this - and worse - so that the bankers can continue to make a profit. When do you stop? - when people are starving? When society collapses into chaos and violence? How 'competitive' will greece be then?

Its a simple moral arugment - and anyone who supports the continuing policy of turning the screw is a fucking cunt.
They dont need a 'bailout' to meet interest payments - they need their debts to be written off.

 

[SpineyNorman]

If countries just lived within their means, in terms of only spending the money that they take in taxes, they wouldn't get into this mess in the first place.

Whoever thought it a good idea to regularly spend more on government projects and social programs than you actually make in taxation?

Giles..

You're a moron. Go away.

 

[Roadkill]

If countries just lived within their means, in terms of only spending the money that they take in taxes, they wouldn't get into this mess in the first place.

Whoever thought it a good idea to regularly spend more on government projects and social programs than you actually make in taxation?

Giles..

Simplistic twaddle.

 

[JimW]

If countries just lived within their means, in terms of only spending the money that they take in taxes, they wouldn't get into this mess in the first place.

Whoever thought it a good idea to regularly spend more on government projects and social programs than you actually make in taxation?

Giles..

No, this is a fair point. Why didn't the Greek central bank join the Christmas Club and maybe get those army uniforms out the catalogue? That's how I balance my books.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Fuck Off giles with your pompous lectures about economic piety.

People in Greece are facing dire dire poverty, people will die becasue they cant get medicines, people are being reduced to destitution in their thousands - through no fault of their own.

You arguing for more and more of this - and worse - so that the bankers can continue to make a profit. When do you stop? - when people are starving? When society collapses into chaos and violence? How 'competitive' will greece be then?

Its a simple moral arugment - and anyone who supports the continuing policy of turning the screw is a fucking cunt.
They dont need a 'bailout' to meet interest payments - they need their debts to be written off.

Quite apart from the fact that it won't fucking work.

Firstly someone mentioned the other day that this economic pain is probably going to go on until 2020, even in the austerity plan works like the Troika says it will. Look how polarised the country is now, is it even vaguely plausible that the Greek people are going to put up with another 8 years of deterioration? Secondly, austerity won't work like the Troika says it will, because austerity in a recession is a proven failure.

 

[Roadkill]

Quite apart from the fact that it won't fucking work.

Firstly someone mentioned the other day that this economic pain is probably going to go on until 2020, even in the austerity plan works like the Troika says it will. Look how polarised the country is now, is it even vaguely plausible that the Greek people are going to put up with another 8 years of deterioration? Secondly, austerity won't work like the Troika says it will, because austerity in a recession is a proven failure.

There's no point trying to argue facts with Giles and his ilk: they're too sunk in dogma to take any notice!

 

[SpineyNorman]

But... but... if I have a big credit card bill I cut my spending on other things to pay it off. A state is, or at least ought to be, exactly the same. That's logic that is.

 

[butchersapron]

This is beyond economics anyway - this is now utterly centrally and irreversibly political - and not just on the national level.

 

[Blagsta]

If countries just lived within their means, in terms of only spending the money that they take in taxes, they wouldn't get into this mess in the first place.

Whoever thought it a good idea to regularly spend more on government projects and social programs than you actually make in taxation?

Giles..

Arghhhh