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Greek Parliamentary Election

Sounds good to me! Better than staying in the Euro and borrowing themselves into an ever-deeper pit.

Maybe the whole world should have a debt jubilee? Start again with a clean sheet of paper?

Giles..

But remember Giles, despite your surprising enthusiasm for debt default , this will be kinda hard to make stick - and a certain amount of "heavy handedness" might be required by the 99.9% of the population, in Greece as with the world in general, against no doubt armed resistance by the tiny minority (and their supporters) who currently own and control most of the resources ie, the buggers would have to be expropriated without compensation , and the resources put under some sort of socialised ownership. Otherwise , no "clean sheet", as with grossly unequal ownership of resources , the "haves" quickly build up their wealth again as against the "have-nots", even if there is some sort of " world debt reset/writeoff" at some point (most unlikely - unless we mean via hyperinflation and brand new currencies after a world economic metdown -- which is possible - but still doesn't in itself change the nature of grossly unequal resource ownership by social classes).

To quote that cynical old tyrant ,Mao , at the end of the day "real power comes from the barrel of a gun" Fuck with the bankers and the capitalist class generally , on behalf of the 99% of "have nots" for too long and the Greeks and the rest of us will soon see the facade of "Bourgeoise Democracy" pulled aside and the reality of that harsh judgement acted out.
 
To quote that cynical old tyrant ,Mao , at the end of the day "real power comes from the barrel of a gun"

The bit after this is quite true, however, it would perhaps be best not to quote him so loosely outside of the specific historical context in which he and others found themselves in when he wrote that. Just saying like, for those that haven't bothered to read him.
 
The bit after this is quite true, however, it would perhaps be best not to quote him so loosely outside of the specific historical context in which he and others found themselves in when he wrote that. Just saying like, for those that haven't bothered to read him.
Everything in Yan'an was created by having guns, as someone or other once said :D

Wasn't the full quote something like "Power grows out of the barrel of a gun, but the party must control the gun, the gun must never control the party"?
 
Wasn't the full quote something like "Power grows out of the barrel of a gun, but the party must control the gun, the gun must never control the party"?

I found the full quote:

Every Communist must grasp the truth, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party.
 
Wasn't the full quote something like "Power grows out of the barrel of a gun, but the party must control the gun, the gun must never control the party"?
Yep, but he goes on to say the bit I quoted and more, it's from Problems of War and Strategy: http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_12.htm (site seems down atm)

ETA:
Yet, having guns, we can create Party organizations, as witness the powerful Party organizations which the Eighth Route Army has created in northern China. We can also create cadres, create schools, create culture, create mass movements. Everything in Yenan has been created by having guns. All things grow out of the barrel of a gun.
Found it here: http://www.marx2mao.com/Mao/PWS38.html
 
I found the full quote:

Pedants of the world unite.. you have nothing to lose but the point of the specific USE of the quote ... which was :

" at the end of the day "real power comes from the barrel of a gun" Fuck with the bankers and the capitalist class generally , on behalf of the 99% of "have nots" for too long and the Greeks and the rest of us will soon see the facade of "Bourgeoise Democracy" pulled aside and the reality of that harsh judgement acted out."

:facepalm:
 
Which is quite a lazy misuse imo, and isn't really what Mao was on about, and the way the CCP had to operate in the 1930s. That's the point I was making. It's also often used as a way to illustrate how nasty and ruthless he was or something, instead of it being a part of the earlier period in which he was writing: being in warlord country with some of its regional government entanglements peculiar to China, and also foreign domination to deal with when the concept of People's War was first developed.

You of course meant it in another way, akin to when the iron fist is easily removed from the velvet glove, and how the sham of bourgeois 'democracy ' is suspended when the ruling class really feels threatened. That's only one part of Mao's thinking, and which is a banal truism anyway (the uppers won't give up what they have peacefully, but the forms of them relinquishing their power and our stolen wealth can be different).

I don't think it has to be a simplistic case of either/or with regard to Mao being 'good' or 'bad'. Mao was evidently a successful and at times brilliant revolutionary leader in the tradition of popular nationalism, but a failure when it came to the establishment of a socialist society in China.

If that last bit wasn't clear enough, I'm not a MAOIST by the way, before you go on one, as I recall that a few months ago I was accused of being an APOLOGIST for the history of BLOOD-SOAKED STALINISM. ;)
 
Come on Captain Hurrah, maybe just the teensiest, weensiest, waffer thin, bit of a Stalinist... (Partly from Monty Python.. "the meaning of Life", the exploding gourmet sketch....)

Using well known quotations (or half remembered versions of same) is a very well established (maybe lazy) means of opening up a comment on on an often quite DIFFERENT context/situation. eg, those goodies of Stalin.. "How many divisions has the Pope ?" and " One death is a tragedy... a million deaths is a statistic"... or that much quoted/misquoted oldie of Marx .. "history often repeats itself.. the first time as tragedy.. the second time as farce" have lent themselves as openers to all sorts of comments on issues of the day.. but don't always require that the quote , or the full quotation is exactly in line with the original .

enough pedantry from ME !

On Mao.. your "take" on Mao as the brilliant , popular nationalist, revolutionery leader, has elements of truth, but he was also ALWAYS a devious meglamaniac, bumping off/purging all rivals , both inside and outside of the Party. It is no accident that the only other leader Mao really admired was his equal in paranoid meglamania, Stalin. There was no chance China ending up other than the totalitarian police state it did with Mao at the "helm" of the Party and state. As a revolutionery socialist I have not an atom of admiration for Mao. He was a total TWAT.
 
You see, I'm not a Mao fan, but l recognise that to understand him you could at least try and acquaint yourself with the various contexts in which he recorded his thoughts over the years. You don't even have to admire him. Your take on Mao Tse-Tung Thought and the history of the Chinese revolution (not just the PRC years) is interesting and refreshing. Not a hyperbolism in sight. Also, in matters of context (Russian civil war), you don't see me quoting your 'hero' Trotsky, who at one time tried to intellectually justify the militarisation of labour, claiming that compulsion had proved to be progressive in other earlier modes of production, for the societies built under Asian despotism and classical slavery. ;)

But, anyway, lets keep the thread on topic ...
 
From the Guardians liveblog, austerity and absurdity continue their dance:

With all eyes on Rome today, it seems Greece was starting to feel left out. Less than a week into the job new Greek prime minister, Antonis Samaras, has been taken to hospital with a detached retina and will undergo eye surgery tomorrow.

Now Greece's new finance minister has collapsed. Reuters reports "Greek incoming finance minister Rapanos taken to hospital after fainting spell - govt sources". Twitter is alive with speculation as to what prompted his faint.

@dianalizia

finmin rapanos took a look at the state finances and fainted; pm samaras saw the figures and suffered a detached retina.
 
Apparently the new finance minister is quitting.

Edit - probably for health reasons since he has been in hospital since he collapsed.
 
from that article:-

Fascists did not suddenly multiply in Greece. Rather, extreme right ideas and values gradually permeated public consciousness, and became mainstream in the last 20 years

from Beating The Fascists a few years ago:-

the real potency of the fascist renaissance across Europe is far better judged by how easily its appearance on a national stage can first panic, and then stampede, an erstwhile political centre to the right



 
from that article:-



from Beating The Fascists a few years ago:-
The quote from BtF is quite true, but surely you are not claiming that the historically universal tendancy for modern capitalist societies to fragment into Far Left and Right , away from the "mainstream political centre" during a period of massive social upheaval is a particularly novel insight ?

I think the "permeation of extreme right wing ideas" in Greece goes back a lot further than "20 years" - this is a country with a long history of Right Wing dictatorships, an occupation by Nazi Germany during WWII - with all the large scale Far Right collaboration that involves, and a vicious post WWII Civil War, which only ended in 1949 - plus the Military Regime of the Colonels - again heavily supported by a variety of xenophobic/fascist organisations and social strata. Hardly surprising that the "long ideological , social, and organisational shadow" of this history provides for a ready springboard for the Far Right during a social crisis as profound as that Greece is currently undergoing.

The UK's lack of a similar 20th century political history of Nazi occupation or extreme Right Military or fascist governments, and hence the lack of the same "social and organisational shadow" on our society is one reason why the Far Right is unlikely (IMO) to explode into a mass social force in such a short timescale in any similar social crisis. In France, Italy, etc, with their imbedded previous history of fascism, Nazi occupation, and mass collaboration, it is a different matter. No reason to be complacent in the UK about the rise of Far Right groups and policies, but our very different political history to continental Europe does make a difference to the way the population of Britain responds to profound social crisise.
 
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