Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[Treacle Toes]

There are a few couples on this site where the bloke has come on to me v v strongly (in one case I actually hit him in response, breaking his glasses) and I have felt like I've just had to accept that and not kick off or ever be open about it because we all know who usually gets shunned from communities for this kind of thing.

Fucking hell. Grim.

...but yes... 'homewrecker' was an insult solely created for women I am sure of it. The assumption will be that you led him on, encouraged it, flirted, disrespected his partner, was the temptress etc even if they do know he is a fucking letch.

 

[Manter]

That used to happen to men A LOT when I was younger. Coupled up blokes hitting on me because I was single. Yuck

In the weeks after I got my engagement ring (10 years ago!!) loads on men hit on me. It was bizarre. I mentioned it to my mum and she said, in a really tired voice that I was a ‘fresh challenge’ now I was so visibly in a relationship with someone else.

I’m not sure what my point is beyond god these dynamics are so many layers of fucked up.

 

[polly]

There are a few couples on this site where the bloke has come on to me v v strongly (in one case I actually hit him in response, breaking his glasses) and I have felt like I've just had to accept that and not kick off or ever be open about it because we all know who usually gets shunned from communities for this kind of thing.

Ew ffs I've had men in couples approach my boyfriend (this happened more than once! Well, twice ) to see if he wanted to swap girlfriends for the night. While acting like I wasn't there, like I didn't have a say. Just gross. As my bezzer frequently says, the fact that there are still heterosexual women in the world proves that sexuality isn't a choice.

To be fair, less than half a dozen men have made more than a couple of contributions to this thread and these have expressed a range of opinions from gromit's fuckwittery to more considered responses that have been well received. There hasn't exactly been a barrage of denial that the issues being discussed are real from most men on this site.

I was thinking about this because I do see where you're coming from. For one thing, there are a few male posters who consistently pop up to bat for women in these threads, and I appreciate that. For another, you're all told to butt out and so I assume there are men reading and not posting, which is also great. But this is an improvement, and quite a recent one. I read Edie's post as not just referencing this thread, but urban men in general on feminism. The record is pretty shit. But I'm glad that the trajectory is promising /patronising

 

[killer b]

I saw a fine example of man-whispering in the wild on Friday night, when I was out dancing: there was this dude getting all up in women's personal space on the dancefloor, each time being smiled at, spoken to all friendly-like and a cautious attempt made to disengage and move him on. After he'd done this a few times with the women in my crew, I inserted myself between him and them, and was - predictably - aggressively buffered for my efforts, and glared at whenever I passed in front of him the rest of the night.

I've only really been aware of this kind of thing on the dancefloor since I stopped drinking and taking drugs. I see it every time I go out dancing now - I guess it's tediously familiar to any woman who's ever been to a disco. The way he reacted with anger when interrupted - and I do interrupt every time now, and get the same reaction every time - illustrates perfectly why it was necessary for the women he was targeting to treat him with caution rather than be firmer with their disengagement.

 

[killer b]

BTW - while I do intervene, I usually leave it a while first - partly because there's a whole load of issues around being the hard man protecting his women, and partly because the man-whispering is so natural, so well done that it's often not very obvious that's what's happening, at first at least. It's behaviour that's more or less invisible, which perhaps explains why many men find it hard to get their heads around.

 

[Manter]

‘Man whispering in the wild’ made me laugh killer b

 

[chilango]

. For another, you're all told to butt out and so I assume there are men reading and not posting, which is also great. But this is an improvement, and quite a recent one. I read Edie's post as not just referencing this thread, but urban men in general on feminism. The record is pretty shit. But I'm glad that the trajectory is promising /patronising

Just to confirm that, yeah, some of us are reading and not posting, and that, yeah, sometimes it's an effort to resist posting and just read....

...which I've now just failed

 

[gentlegreen]

Did I perceive "man whispering" in this year's inclusivity awareness thing at work ?

I must go and check where they got the thing from - it wasn't in-house where we have people who STUDY this sort of thing ... "Equality essentials" it was called.

It took me two goes and multiple reminders to get me to complete it because the first section pissed me off so much as it was determined to show me I was "special" ... I think they used the term "minority".
Even when I added "married with children" to the rest of my privilege, I seem to remember they were keen to show "me" that there were only 1 million people like me in the country ...

 

[killer b]

‘Man whispering in the wild’ made me laugh killer b

Everyone who's met me on the thread is laughing at the idea of me being a hard man protecting his women, I'd imagine.

 

[kalidarkone]

This thread has explained a lot of stuff to me, that at age nearly 50 I recognise but had no name for. I'm also getting a clearer idea of why I might be single
I'm unable to man whisper and for that reason I'm abhorrent to many of them.

 

[kalidarkone]

I saw a fine example of man-whispering in the wild on Friday night, when I was out dancing: there was this dude getting all up in women's personal space on the dancefloor, each time being smiled at, spoken to all friendly-like and a cautious attempt made to disengage and move him on. After he'd done this a few times with the women in my crew, I inserted myself between him and them, and was - predictably - aggressively buffered for my efforts, and glared at whenever I passed in front of him the rest of the night.

I've only really been aware of this kind of thing on the dancefloor since I stopped drinking and taking drugs. I see it every time I go out dancing now - I guess it's tediously familiar to any woman who's ever been to a disco. The way he reacted with anger when interrupted - and I do interrupt every time now, and get the same reaction every time - illustrates perfectly why it was necessary for the women he was targeting to treat him with caution rather than be firmer with their disengagement.

I had a similar incident but as explained above I'm incapable of man whispering and when getting unwanted attention very directly told the guy that ' I was 100% uninterested. He is not for me' He then took my hand and said "I'll just try harder then ' I left. This was also facilitated by a woman I know who when I next saw her told her about herself.

 

[Rebelda]

BTW - while I do intervene, I usually leave it a while first - partly because there's a whole load of issues around being the hard man protecting his women, and partly because the man-whispering is so natural, so well done that it's often not very obvious that's what's happening, at first at least. It's behaviour that's more or less invisible, which perhaps explains why many men find it hard to get their heads around.

This is bang on

I must admit, while definitely grateful when a man steps in to help in this way, I can simultaneously be furious that it was necessary. Which probably evens out on my face as not caring much either way. I have often then had to navigate the man who intervened being pissed off if I haven't fawned sufficiently

 

[killer b]

This is bang on

I must admit, while definitely grateful when a man steps in to help in this way, I can simultaneously be furious that it was necessary. Which probably evens out on my face as not caring much either way. I have often then had to navigate the man who intervened being pissed off if I haven't fawned sufficiently

There's a popular conception - among rose-tinted-glasses wearing men for the most part - that this was less of a problem in the good ol' days of rave, where the dancefloors were self policing and full of pure love of the music. In fact, conversation with female friends over the years revealed to me that even what appeared to the typical pilled up bloke to be the friendliest dancefloors were a cesspit of sexual predation and inappropriate sleaze. It seems to me to have been a permanent problem since forever.

I've seen a lot of chat recently from bands wanting their audiences to be more considerate of the women among them, to call out creeps on the dancefloor etc - which is a move in the right direction, but I really think a change in culture can't be done that way alone. I think venues, bands and people running nights need to take the initiative here with unambiguous and enforced zero tolerance policies - although how to enforce stuff like this is a very difficult thing to balance (hence why no-one really does it).

 

[Looby]

I posted after Easter about a couple of creepy blokes in a venue leering over and hassling my friends. When I reported it the bouncer laughed and did nothing and the second bloke had my friend in a headlock pulling her hair 10 minutes later. So we’re not going back. We like that place and we’ve lost out because we don’t feel safe there. [emoji35]

 

[killer b]

I'm actually going to get in touch with the people who organised the night I was at on Friday with some suggestions - would be interested if anyone knew & had experience of any nights that do run successful no creeps policies, and how they work?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I'm actually going to get in touch with the people who organised the night I was at on Friday with some suggestions - would be interested if anyone knew & had experience of any nights that do run successful no creeps policies, and how they work?

One that springs to mind that's been mentioned here before is Gateway to Zen. I tracked down their safe spaces policy (there was some debate on that wording here as I recall...): .

To me it seems like a good approach. I'm not a woman who has had trouble at one of their events though so I'm not best placed to comment on how effective it ultimately is.

 

[friendofdorothy]

But this pattern of having to spend pages just getting to the point where enough men agree that it’s a legitimate discussion is really tiresome.

When I talk with women about feminism & sexism in private*, we can jump straight to the heart of the issue without having to wade through the “is it really a real problem” stuff. I’d love it if that could happen in mixed conversation too.

This is exactly the point! too often we can only get to what the women want to discuss after pages of shit.
so listen up, men!

 

[friendofdorothy]

As my bezzer frequently says, the fact that there are still heterosexual women in the world proves that sexuality isn't a choice.

this made me laugh out loud!

I often wonder how hetro women cope. Even if you find a lovely man without any of this shit you both still have to put up with it from the rest of the world.

It's funny I had lots of male lovers when I was young (probably a phase) but felt I did actively choose not to marry / live with them to avoid the expectations of the family/friends/world/society. Before I knew what I wanted, I knew I didn't want to play that 'woman's role.

 

[friendofdorothy]

If I ever knew how to man-whisper I lost it decades ago.

Probably about the time I lived in a red-light district and got kerb crawled every 5 mins 24/7. I learned to say 'NO!' and FUCK OFF' a lot. Practice makes perfect.

 

[trabuquera]

Retro man-whispering Special Memories, 1970s edition: My ma (a once-widowed, often-partnered, anti-religious woman who earned her own living for a very large part of her life and was at this point a single working parent) told me several times as a kid/teenage girl that I should never mock, jeer or ridicule someone of the male gender, no matter how ridiculous their behaviour or speech or clothes or whatever was, because ... "you should never laugh at a man" . (professional comedians excepted, I guess???) Baffles me to this day. Obviously nobody likes being belittled or bullied, and not everyone can deal with being laughed at. But is being laughed at across gender lines so much worse? And for whom? And if so why? Still can't really compute it to be honest. what was she thinking?

 

[Poot]

Retro man-whispering Special Memories, 1970s edition: My ma (a once-widowed, often-partnered, anti-religious woman who earned her own living for a very large part of her life and was at this point a single working parent) told me several times as a kid/teenage girl that I should never mock, jeer or ridicule someone of the male gender, no matter how ridiculous their behaviour or speech or clothes or whatever was, because ... "you should never laugh at a man" . (professional comedians excepted, I guess???) Baffles me to this day. Obviously nobody likes being belittled or bullied, and not everyone can deal with being laughed at. But is being laughed at across gender lines so much worse? And for whom? And if so why? Still can't really compute it to be honest. what was she thinking?

It is a bit odd, maybe she thought men were more sensitive?

I suppose it's along the same lines as 'never beat a woman'. Well, yeah, how's about not beating anyone!

 

[killer b]

Maybe she thought they might beat you?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I remember my mum many years ago telling me that I should be careful never to lead a man on, because they can't control themselves in certain situations, and if I did it would be my fault.

No wonder some of us became expert man-whisperers!

 

[Cloo]

My mum never warned me against men, though she'd had her share of dodgy encounters I am sure. She did once say to me 'Remember, darling, all men think with their dicks' , though (awaits 'not all men' responses)

 

[dylanredefined]

Following on from spanglechick 's post on another thread and the interesting points she and other's made...

I often refuse to Man-whisper, I can see that it's sometimes my default...in my life I have had so much more beef with men than women, particular alphas. Even as a heterosexual woman.

I was not nurtured to yield or whisper useless you actually wanted to (choice eh?) by the significant females in my life growing up... Wider society, shared culture, the patriarchy, of course all there and affecting but in personal everyday interactions my default isn't to demure myself...this has had a major impact on my relationships with men within and outside of my family.

What about you?

How do you understand the idea of 'man whispering' in terms of female identity and safety?

How does that reflect on your own life and relationships?

ETA:

Using the term Alpha really?
Any bloke who uses it other than ironically
Is obviously a dick.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Using the term Alpha really?
Any bloke who uses it other than ironically
Is obviously a dick.

What would you say is a better term for me to use?

Also, are you thoughts on the thread topic?

 

[dylanredefined]

What would you say is a better term for me to use?

Also, are you thoughts on the thread topic?

Don't know if you are having to man whisper to prevent a bad end he isn't one though.
Alpha being the so called confident self assured bloke. Should take criticism or just another opinion in his stride. Angry Manchild springs to mind as a better description.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Speaking of social events etc. I have a default face that instantly appears when I am absolutely not interested. It has never failed me yet. Comes from teaching...my cross pissed off face.
When I've engaged this default face I am never ever approached
I developed it in my early teens whe I used to have to wait for a bus home from school and was sick of being approached. And after a horrible incident on a bus where an old fucker decided he could touch me up...and I was so young and innocent I did not know what to do.

Anyway...my default shit storm face works wonders.

I do realise that I should not have to do this...and I may well have put off some decent guys too but I've always figured that better to put off the scumbags than attract one.

 

[kalidarkone]

It is a bit odd, maybe she thought men were more sensitive?

I suppose it's along the same lines as 'never beat a woman'. Well, yeah, how's about not beating anyone!

I've learnt to never laugh when having sex with a man because when I have its been perceived that I'm laughing at them and before I can explain that actually I'm just enjoying myself and having fun they have got all huffy and are having a sulk.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Don't know if you are having to man whisper to prevent a bad end he isn't one though.

I don't understand what you mean.

Alpha being the so called confident self assured bloke. Should take criticism or just another opinion in his stride. Angry Manchild springs to mind as a better description.

It is my experience that confident, overly self assured blokes do not take criticism in their stride nor have they coped very well with me being independent, capable and not minimising myself to/for them. I find them aggressive and hyper-masculine. That is what I mean by 'alpha' not just someone who is confident and comfortable in himself.