Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[Manter]

If I ever knew how to man-whisper I lost it decades ago.

Probably about the time I lived in a red-light district and got kerb crawled every 5 mins 24/7. I learned to say 'NO!' and FUCK OFF' a lot. Practice makes perfect.

I lived downstairs from a sex worker briefly when I first moved to London. Some of what was said to me when punters thought I was her (and when it became obvious I wasn’t her) has made me very sceptical of the whole sex work is empowering narrative

 

[Edie]

Retro man-whispering Special Memories, 1970s edition: My ma (a once-widowed, often-partnered, anti-religious woman who earned her own living for a very large part of her life and was at this point a single working parent) told me several times as a kid/teenage girl that I should never mock, jeer or ridicule someone of the male gender, no matter how ridiculous their behaviour or speech or clothes or whatever was, because ... "you should never laugh at a man" . (professional comedians excepted, I guess???) Baffles me to this day. Obviously nobody likes being belittled or bullied, and not everyone can deal with being laughed at. But is being laughed at across gender lines so much worse? And for whom? And if so why? Still can't really compute it to be honest. what was she thinking?

My ‘dad’ warned me never to lead a man on when I was 11

 

[Mumbles274]

I've been reading this thread and have learned a lot thanks to some really personal and honest posts. I can't imagine how hard it is to have to navigate the world you do. I really value urban for threads like this that help me see a different perspective. I've always done my best to raise my daughters with feminist values and this will be one more thing i can consider in what the world is like for them. As a reader of these threads, thank you

 

[dylanredefined]

I don't understand what you mean.


It is my experience that confident, overly self assured blokes do not take criticism in their stride nor have they coped very well with me being independent, capable and not minimising myself to/for them. I find them aggressive and hyper-masculine. That is what I mean by 'alpha' not just someone who is confident and comfortable in himself.

Think you mean a wanker instead of Alpha

 

[Treacle Toes]

Think you mean a wanker instead of Alpha

No I mean an Alpha. Personally I don't think it's an either/or thing. Why are you arguing this point with me?

 

[Pickman's model]

An alpha romeo perhaps

 

[Treacle Toes]

'What I mean is this.'

'No, you don't even know what you are thinking or describing, what you mean is this'

'No I don't, I know what I mean.'

'Oh look, an opportunity to crack a shit joke'

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhh... Boring as fuck.

 

[friendofdorothy]

My ‘dad’ warned me never to lead a man on when I was 11

I don't recall anyone explicitly saying that - but that was the general message all girls got before feminists challenged it. I was brought up in the '60s and '70s with the feeling that it would be my fault if a boy/bloke tried it on, that it was a good girls duty not to put herself in that position to defend her own honour.

This was the culture that saw paedophilia as normal, blamed victims of rape, didn't listen to reports of abuse and let the likes of Saville get away with it.

 

[kalidarkone]

I don't recall anyone explicitly saying that - but that was the general message all girls got before feminists challenged it. I was brought up in the '60s and '70s with the feeling that it would be my fault if a boy/bloke tried it on, that it was a good girls duty not to put herself in that position to defend her own honour.

This was the culture that saw paedophilia as normal, blamed victims of rape, didn't listen to reports of abuse and let the likes of Saville get away with it.

Totally - I never dared to tell my ma I was raped- because it would be my fault and 'I told you so'

 

[friendofdorothy]

Totally - I never dared to tell my ma I was raped- because it would be my fault and 'I told you so'

Liked only in sympathy. That sounds awful for you.

 

[kalidarkone]

Liked only in sympathy. That sounds awful for you.

It was a very very long time ago and in a way the worst thing about it is not being able to tell my own family and get support because of the ingrained beliefs regarding correct behaviour of men and women. It's also more complex cus it's not just about me being female and never living up to expectations but in their eyes I'm. Just. Wrong. and am barely tolerated and pitied. However I can safely say that if I had been male I would have had permission to be myself. I am myself but just without permission and the philosophy that there must be something really wrong with me.
Like if this were the 1800s I'd be the one put in the asylum for not conforming

 

[friendofdorothy]

I never told my family when an older cousin touched me up, in my own bed. I was a 13 year old and he was 26 and married to a beautiful woman. I didn't understand what was happening at the time. I was so confused by the whole thing, I thought it might have been my fault.

I was horrified when he became the head teacher at at girls school years later but didn't feel there was any thing I could have done.

He got a comeuppance of sorts that when he had a heart attack both his wife and a lover turned up at his hospital bed. End of marriage, and I think end of his career, as he ended up living back with his mother.

 

[Manter]

I don't recall anyone explicitly saying that - but that was the general message all girls got before feminists challenged it. I was brought up in the '60s and '70s with the feeling that it would be my fault if a boy/bloke tried it on, that it was a good girls duty not to put herself in that position to defend her own honour.

This was the culture that saw paedophilia as normal, blamed victims of rape, didn't listen to reports of abuse and let the likes of Saville get away with it.

Not sure that’s changed. Dr Jessica Eaton does a lot of work on victim blaming, especially of children

 

[Steel Icarus]

When I finally plucked up the courage to disclose to a teacher that my stepdad beat me regularly, the Deputy Headmistress told me she wasn't surprised as I was a naughty child. End of conversation, end of telling adults/strangers anything about it for 30 years.

 

[Red Cat]

I think it has changed, a main part of any work with children is safeguarding and there's huge anxiety in systems about children being abused or neglected. If you disclosed now that would be reported. But perhaps the blame moves around...and CSE is where the guilty child narrative is these days. Thing is nobody wants to believe that children are abused, and it takes a lot of reflective supervision to not turn a blind eye, it's not a matter of personal moral failing, people need spaces to think to support seeing things for how they are.

 

[Treacle Toes]

When I finally plucked up the courage to disclose to a teacher that my stepdad beat me regularly, the Deputy Headmistress told me she wasn't surprised as I was a naughty child. End of conversation, end of telling adults/strangers anything about it for 30 years.

Uff how fucking horrible! There really was a belief that physical abuse was acceptable and that disciplining children was important. 'Spare the rod, spoil the child' type attitudes. What kind of school did you go to? There certainly was religious doctrine running through the approach of many and that legitimised corporal punishment in schools too.

 

[Steel Icarus]

It was a former grammar school but which had recently become a comprehensive, and taken on a lot of pupils from a much smaller comp on a "notorious" estate. Consequently there was a weird clash of middle class kids who lived around the park and kids from the estate, and some teachers who had been there a while had no clue how to manage it.

I know enough about safeguarding to know that teacher would likely have lost her job for that reaction now, but now I'd like to think she'd have at least passed it to the Safeguarding lead (which of course didn't exist then).

When I turned up at school with my back looking like a raspberry fruit gum from a metal tennis racket walloping and showed other kids (not without a little pride, if I'm honest) it was the more forceful/respected/hard kids that got the word out that I was to be left alone while I was at school. Sounds very Hollywood but for the most part that's exactly what happened.

 

[Cloo]

I think it has changed, a main part of any work with children is safeguarding and there's huge anxiety in systems about children being abused or neglected. If you disclosed now that would be reported. But perhaps the blame moves around...and CSE is where the guilty child narrative is these days. Thing is nobody wants to believe that children are abused, and it takes a lot of reflective supervision to not turn a blind eye, it's not a matter of personal moral failing, people need spaces to think to support seeing things for how they are.

Yes, there's a horrible irony in that a kid flagged as 'at risk of sexual exploitation' risks ending up being seen as 'a child who brings exploitation on themselves', not a child in a context where they are in particular danger from exploitative adults. And one imagines this may be especially the case with girls above boys. 'She knew what she was doing' 'Mature-looking' 'Experienced'....

 

[Steel Icarus]

All of which is a long way of saying I'm not friends with blokes. Some men, yes, but no manly men in the trad sense. The few male friends I have...one is gay and lives with a retired headmistress by the seaside, another runs an arts cooperative and has a girlfriend from a rich American family, two others are happily married and are very quiet and gentle men, and my best pal is like me in that he rejects blokedom and is uncomfortable with it.

 

[Red Cat]

Yes, there's a horrible irony in that a kid flagged as 'at risk of sexual exploitation' risks ending up being seen as 'a child who brings exploitation on themselves', not a child in a context where they are in particular danger from exploitative adults. And one imagines this may be especially the case with girls above boys. 'She knew what she was doing' 'Mature-looking' 'Experienced'....

tbf CSE referral forms require a lot of detail about what makes the child vulnerable, and schools are well aware too. Nothing is static, things do change through greater awareness and training. But I think children as a group are the receptacle for all sorts of adult projections, just as women are for men, and men for women, but some groups have more power than others which makes a difference.

 

[Manter]

Yes, there's a horrible irony in that a kid flagged as 'at risk of sexual exploitation' risks ending up being seen as 'a child who brings exploitation on themselves', not a child in a context where they are in particular danger from exploitative adults. And one imagines this may be especially the case with girls above boys. 'She knew what she was doing' 'Mature-looking' 'Experienced'....

There was a horrible article about a boy who was abused but was gay so the grooming was basically dismissed as experimentation. I suspect those blamed are all who are in any way blameable- for being female, black, gay, poor, inarticulate, angry, promiscuous, provocative etc etc .

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, there's a horrible irony in that a kid flagged as 'at risk of sexual exploitation' risks ending up being seen as 'a child who brings exploitation on themselves', not a child in a context where they are in particular danger from exploitative adults. And one imagines this may be especially the case with girls above boys. 'She knew what she was doing' 'Mature-looking' 'Experienced'....

a discussion here https://www.urban75.net/forums/thre...l-relationship-with-15-yr-old-student.355631/

 

[kalidarkone]

I've failed again
I'm not very good with the male chivalry ting.... I got on the tube to go to Victoria to getc the bus back to Bristol and despite there being plenty of seats I chose to stand up cus I'm gonna be sat down for 2.5 hrs and I get to have a likkle dance round the pole to the jungle coming through my headphones
The guy standing opposite me gestures and points behind me to a guy sitting down who is gesturing 'Do I want a seat'? I take my headphones off and he repeats do you want to sit down? (There are other seats available)
I feel a bit bad about my response cus his intention was to be polite....
So I say 'Do you think I'm old'?
He says 'No'
I say 'Do you think I'm pregnant'?
He says 'no'
I say 'OK just checking *giggles* errm no but thanks for asking'

I then felt I'd been harsh and rejecting but at the same time found it odd that I'd clearly chosen to stand up and as he hadn't asked the guy also standing I thought he must of thought there was something inadequate about me - which is what chivalry is really.

I felt slightly concerned that I had humiliated him, however I felt slightly humiliated by him asking if I wanted a seat in the first place.

 

[mauvais]

There's a difference between offering someone your seat and offering someone a seat (because e.g. they were blocking it or had baggage on it etc). One implies that you might need it more than them for some reason, and the other is just politeness.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've failed again
I'm not very good with the male chivalry ting.... I got on the tube to go to Victoria to getc the bus back to Bristol and despite there being plenty of seats I chose to stand up cus I'm gonna be sat down for 2.5 hrs and I get to have a likkle dance round the pole to the jungle coming through my headphones
The guy standing opposite me gestures and points behind me to a guy sitting down who is gesturing 'Do I want a seat'? I take my headphones off and he repeats do you want to sit down? (There are other seats available)
I feel a bit bad about my response cus his intention was to be polite....
So I say 'Do you think I'm old'?
He says 'No'
I say 'Do you think I'm pregnant'?
He says 'no'
I say 'OK just checking *giggles* errm no but thanks for asking'

I then felt I'd been harsh and rejecting but at the same time found it odd that I'd clearly chosen to stand up and as he hadn't asked the guy also standing I thought he must of thought there was something inadequate about me - which is what chivalry is really.

I felt slightly concerned that I had humiliated him, however I felt slightly humiliated by him asking if I wanted a seat in the first place.

That's a bit weird tbh, especially given that there were other seats available. And if you had headphones on, that's extra reason to leave you alone. You did the right thing.

On the pregnancy thing, the 'baby on board' badges are a great idea. I have in the past sat there stricken by indecision, wondering 'Is she pregnant or just a bit fat?' And then there's the opposite problem when you can't tell a woman is pregnant at all.

 

[Cloo]

I totally saw a woman trying to work out if I was pregnant (tell-tale glance at stomach, then up at lapel for badge) - evidently she decided not! Yes, I do have a sticky out tummy. A have once or twice had people ask me if I was preggers and I have just laughed and said 'No, I guess it's just not a very flattering dress' and I honestly, really don't mind, I know it's just my shape - it's probably worse for them than me.

 

[Clair De Lune]

It's not so much that us women have to walk on eggshells - it's that we've been taught that men are golden eggs. You gotta teeter around them, tread carefully, gently cajole them, sugarcoat shit for them, massage their egos, put them on a pedestal, watch what you say, don't make them angry, don't bruise their ego, don't laugh at them, don't expect much of them, don't ignore them, don't leave them hungry, don't leave them horny or they'll cheat on you, don't make them jealous, dont be smarter than them, don't become more successful than them, don't, whatever you do, come across like you don't need them. Don't nag them, interrupt them, answer back or make them feel small in any way.
Because they are golden fucking eggs- fragile, dangerous and worth ten of you, no matter who you are.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

I've failed again
I'm not very good with the male chivalry ting.... I got on the tube to go to Victoria to getc the bus back to Bristol and despite there being plenty of seats I chose to stand up cus I'm gonna be sat down for 2.5 hrs and I get to have a likkle dance round the pole to the jungle coming through my headphones
The guy standing opposite me gestures and points behind me to a guy sitting down who is gesturing 'Do I want a seat'? I take my headphones off and he repeats do you want to sit down? (There are other seats available)
I feel a bit bad about my response cus his intention was to be polite....
So I say 'Do you think I'm old'?
He says 'No'
I say 'Do you think I'm pregnant'?
He says 'no'
I say 'OK just checking *giggles* errm no but thanks for asking'

I then felt I'd been harsh and rejecting but at the same time found it odd that I'd clearly chosen to stand up and as he hadn't asked the guy also standing I thought he must of thought there was something inadequate about me - which is what chivalry is really.

I felt slightly concerned that I had humiliated him, however I felt slightly humiliated by him asking if I wanted a seat in the first place.

I hate this too. It happens a lot on the tfl overground more than the tube [I think because there's slightly more room for people to get past each other ].

I usually say no.

Please, person next to the seat, take it, unless there is someone who is unable to stand easily

I don't need the seat because I am female

 

[Steel Icarus]

It's not so much that us women have to walk on eggshells - it's that we've been taught that men are golden eggs. You gotta teeter around them, tread carefully, gently cajole them, sugarcoat shit for them, massage their egos, put them on a pedestal, watch what you say, don't make them angry, don't bruise their ego, don't laugh at them, don't expect much of them, don't ignore them, don't leave them hungry, don't leave them horny or they'll cheat on you, don't make them jealous, dont be smarter than them, don't become more successful than them, don't, whatever you do, come across like you don't need them. Don't nag them, interrupt them, answer back or make them feel small in any way.
Because they are golden fucking eggs- fragile, dangerous and worth ten of you, no matter who you are.

Thank goodness, then, that both my marriages and a fling in between were with women who'd either broken out, rejected or utterly ignored this paradigm by the time they met me.

 

[Clair De Lune]

Thank goodness, then, that both my marriages and a fling in between were with women who'd either broken out, rejected or utterly ignored this paradigm by the time they met me.

Get your wife on here, I wanna ask her something