Feminism and violence again women

[friendofdorothy]

It may be self selecting but I think understanding the sheer scale of the issue is what is needed.

'I thought it was just a part of life'

Understanding the Scale of Violence
Committed Against Women
in the UK Since Birth

99.7% of our sample had been repeatedly subjected to violence including assaults, harassment and rape.

Only 0.3% of women had only been subjected to one violent incident or less.

Our initial findings in this report suggest that current statistics of the prevalence of violence against women have been underestimated for decades, and instead, it is likely that every woman and girl will be subjected to violence, abuse, rape or harassment. In the vast majority of cases reported here, women were subjected to multiple crimes and the perpetrators were overwhelmingly male

We need to challenge the casual everyday acceptance of male violence against women.

 

[bluescreen]

It’s a bit annoying that they repeatedly say in their methods that the sample is self selecting and they don’t seek to generalise, then their headline is ‘99.3% of UK women…’. They need to say 99.3% of our self-selecting sample of UK women.

Yes, it's annoying that it's not clear. How would you propose we get clear and honest answers from a statistically significant proportion of the female population? /snark

And how many women (or what proportion of all women) would be necessary to satisfy a sufficient number of men that there is a real problem that they need to focus on instead of complaining about the sampling method - so that things can change?

 

[Edie]

Yes, it's annoying that it's not clear. How would you propose we get clear and honest answers from a statistically significant proportion of the female population? /snark

And how many women (or what proportion of all women) would be necessary to satisfy a sufficient number of men that there is a real problem that they need to focus on instead of complaining about the sampling method - so that things can change?

Are any questions asked in the census?

I don’t think the second question is related to data quality.

 

[bluescreen]

Are any questions asked in the census?

I don’t think the second question is related to data quality.

Sorry, I don't understand. What census are you talking about? Are you suggesting that the govt census could ask these questions and get an honest answer? You cannot be serious, so I don't think this is what you mean.

As for my second question, it was rhetorical. I don't think we can scientifically know the scale of the problem (because of shame, downplaying, lack of agreement on common terms etc) but we already know enough to recognise it's massive, and that until there are enough men recognising it's massive (without quibbling about need for precise data) nothing much can happen.

Mind you, I don't know what could change things, but recognising there's a problem and that it's not all women's fault would be a start.

 

[smokedout]

It may be self selecting but I think understanding the sheer scale of the issue is what is needed.



We need to challenge the casual everyday acceptance of male violence against women.

I wonder if it's the every day acceptance that causes other studies to under report the problem. Pretty much every woman I know well enough to have ever discussed it with has experienced male sexual violence, usually more than once, as have I FWIW, but it's so normalised that when the ONS or someone says have you been a victim of a crime, or a sexual assault, or rape in the last year a lot of people wouldn't report things like partner rape, or a colleague drunkenly groping them as 'crimes', but as the quote in your post says "just part of life". It sounds like a lot of studies are asking the wrong questions, as the authors of this survey point out - "when asking large samples about their sexual experiences, the reporting of rape differed based on whether women were asked directly if they had ever been ‘raped’ versus asking them if they had ever been forced to have sex without consent. "

 

[sparkybird]

Thanks for starting this thread friendofdorothy
I've not read it all, so apologies if this has been raised already but I highly recommend the book Men Who Hate Women by Laura Bates to understand how young boys/young men are drawn into perpetrating violence (physical and emotional) against women and how a lack of support for them leads to radicalisation.
She calls it terrorism, and it is, then points out the millions the govt puts into 'anti terrorism' measures, but nothing for this type of terrorism which would save countless more lives, not all of them female.

 

[ouirdeaux]

She was a "good girl" wearing sensible clothes walking home early in the evening. I've walked home very late so drunk I can hardly stay on the pavement. It would still have been wrong to rape and kill me. It would still be wrong to rape and kill a sex worker.

This is something I've never understood. If someone is a victim of robbery or violence because they are intoxicated, or particularly vulnerable because of their conditions of employment, it makes the perpetrator more culpable, not less, doesn't it? If someone cheats a blind person, or attacks someone whose disability means they have less chance of defending themselves than might otherwise be the case, aren't they bigger scumbags?

 

[sparkybird]

And as you say it's global. I can highly recommend the Netflix documentary, The Three Deaths of Marisela Escobedo, about a Mexican mother's campaign to bring about justice for her 'disappeared' daughter
Article here (with spoilers)

Netflix's 'The Three Deaths of\u00a0Marisela Escobedo' tells story of slain Juárez activist mom

\

www.elpasotimes.com

 

[Edie]

Sorry, I don't understand. What census are you talking about? Are you suggesting that the govt census could ask these questions and get an honest answer? You cannot be serious, so I don't think this is what you mean.

As for my second question, it was rhetorical. I don't think we can scientifically know the scale of the problem (because of shame, downplaying, lack of agreement on common terms etc) but we already know enough to recognise it's massive, and that until there are enough men recognising it's massive (without quibbling about need for precise data) nothing much can happen.

Mind you, I don't know what could change things, but recognising there's a problem and that it's not all women's fault would be a start.

Yes, the census. But tbf I’m not entirely sure what kind of data is collected in it, and if it’s answered per household rather than per person it wouldn’t work. Are there any other population-wide surveys? There would still be reporting bias in the census or similar, but there would be massively less sampling bias (well it’s not a sample it’s the whole population I think).

 

[bluescreen]

Yes, the census. But tbf I’m not entirely sure what kind of data is collected in it, and if it’s answered per household rather than per person it wouldn’t work. Are there any other population-wide surveys? There would still be reporting bias in the census or similar, but there would be massively less sampling bias (well it’s not a sample it’s the whole population I think).

Ah, OK. The government census is a household survey, so hardly conducive to the sort of frankness we're looking for, particularly when women are inclined to minimise these things even to themselves.

 

[bluescreen]

Ah, OK. The government census is a household survey, so hardly conducive to the sort of frankness we're looking for, particularly when women are inclined to minimise these things even to themselves.

I tell you, I started to fill in that Victim Focus survey and my first few answers upset me so much I couldn't complete it. So many of us are schooled to regard male sexual appetite as a force of nature, and our fault if we fail to escape or control it. Yet men are surely as capable of self-control as women are.

 

[Oula]

Very nice come back from you, @Oula!

at it happening but at that

At the time I thought "that's it! I'm confident enough to call men out on this shit now. I'm free! " but the next time someone touched me without permission it didn't go like that. I realised that the time I stood up for myself I'd drunk just the right amount to be assertive and quick thinking and the next time I was in a less confident headspace and I was stoned. I was so disappointed with myself that I hadn't responded to it as well as the time before.

But that's an unfair pressure to put on myself, I think. It's them doing it. I shouldn't have to ready with no warning to respond appropriately.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Whatever data is available it doesn't make much difference, if there is no public acceptance of the need change and no polical will to enforce the law.

 

[bluescreen]

I tell you, I started to fill in that Victim Focus survey and my first few answers upset me so much I couldn't complete it. So many of us are schooled to regard male sexual appetite as a force of nature, and our fault if we fail to escape or control it. Yet men are surely as capable of self-control as women are.

I mean, it surprised me. I started off thinking - yeah, I can do this. And even before I got to the difficult stuff I was faced with how I had minimised so much.

 

[Oula]

Is there a difference between men who are violent to other men and men who are violent to women? Or men who are violent to their partners?

Or does one just eventually become the other and the violence spread everywhere?

I have a male friend who I've always known to "have a temper", especially when he's been drinking. I've seen him have fights as a teenager. He's been in trouble for violence at work. Years ago I decided to stop going out drinking with him after I had to de-escalate an incident that he started. But I never felt in personal danger from him, more concerned that I might get caught in the crossfire if he started something with someone else.

Then he hurt his partner. My perception of him completely changed. Then shortly afterwards we had a disagreement about something else and I was scared of him for the first time. Really scared. He was very angry with me, he knew where I lived, I was particularly vulnerable for other reasons and he was particularly unstable for specific reasons.

Nothing happened and I don't think anything will but feeling that fear was horrible.

 

[mentalchik]

I think some men have a different understanding of what force is. I know several women who have had experiences with partners where they have been persuaded into sex when they didn't want it. Perhaps the man in that situation comes away feeling she consented (eventually) so it's not a rape. But the woman feels she didn't really consent, only gave in to stop the pressure.

Am in the process of lending support to a young colleague at work (she's 21) she's being abused by her partner and father of their child and is trying to get away.....one of the recent incidents was her waking up in the middle of the night with him having sex with her......she asked me if that's rape....i asked her if she consented and she didn't, just lay there etc and so i told her that yes, that is rape......she even had texts from him virtually admitting it (have told her to keep and document everything) but it's very obvious that he doesn't consider what he was doing as rape.

In my lifetime this has become much worse...we seem to be going backwards and if goverments and justice systems don't respect women (eg some of the stuff going on in the USA re. abortion rights) or recognise womens rights over their own bodies i sometimes wonder what hope there is. I used to have a small circle of female friends and every one of them had experienced some type of abuse at some point from a boyfriend/partner, my own sister also did.....i've experienced groping in clubs, verbal abuse in the street etc This is a much wider and more complex issue that it's given credit for, why as a society, are we still producing such numbers of men that behave in this way.

 

[mojo pixy]

Is there a difference between men who are violent to other men and men who are violent to women? Or men who are violent to their partners?

Or does one just eventually become the other and the violence spread everywhere?

Nobody really cares about male violence towards boys and men, it's the acceptable side of this, "boys being boys" etc.

Most male violence is towards other males, but 'end male violence against men' is never cried out with the same urgency as 'end male violence against women'. Boys and men are expected, broadly, to be violent, to deal with violence, to protect others from violence, and to be dealt with violently. I believe violence againt men and women is the same thing; women are physically weaker, which appeals to a certain kind of man, which is why it's seen as so contemptible and cowardly to be violent to women ... but the attitude is really: pick on someone your own size, ie. a man.

Dunno where I'm going with this; I hate violence against women and girls, have never comitted any but I have been a victim of "male violence" countless times and told I probably provoked it, deserved it, and should learn to fight back. But I'm a man so clearly different standards apply.

That ends my only post here (I hope).

 

[bluescreen]

Nobody really cares about male violence towards boys and men, it's the acceptable side of this, "boys being boys" etc.

Most male violence is towards other males, but 'end male violence against men' is never cried out with the same urgency as 'end male violence against women'. Boys and men are expected, broadly, to be violent, to deal with violence, to protect others from violence, and to be dealt with violently. I believe violence againt men and women is the same thing; women are physically weaker, which appeals to a certain kind of man, which is why it's seen as so contemptible and cowardly to be violent to women ... but the attitude is really: pick on someone your own size, ie. a man.

Dunno where I'm going with this; I hate violence against women and girls, have never comkitted any but I have been a victim of "male violence" countless times and told I probably provoked it, deserved it, and should learn to fight back. But I'm a man so clearly different standards apply.

That ends my only post here (I hope).

OK. I don’t doubt that there is a huge amount of violence directed against men by other men. You say yourself

'end male violence against men' is never cried out with the same urgency as 'end male violence against women'. Boys and men are expected, broadly, to be violent, to deal with violence, to protect others from violence, and to be dealt with violently.

And this all too often gets translated into ‘women whinge’ and ‘what about the menz?’

But what you describe is at the heart of the problem: the normalisation of male violence.

It happens to women because they tend to be smaller and weaker and get pregnant, and have babies. And male domination over women has been enshrined in leading religions as a god-given right/duty.

It’s horrible whoever it happens to. When it happens to women it has the extra spin of sexual aggression, male dominance over female, that puts women in fear of their bodily autonomy and their lives.

It needs to stop.

 

[emanymton]

Is there a difference between men who are violent to other men and men who are violent to women? Or men who are violent to their partners?

I don't think there is really. To me the issue is just male violence in general.

I would not want to draw an equivalence between the experiences, but most men will have experienced random violence or harassment from men just as most women have and most of these will go unreported as well, I've certainly never bothered.

This is part of why I don't like the phrase toxic masculinity, I'm not sure there is such a thing as non-toxic masculinity.

 

[Sue]

mentalchik, I'm really glad your colleague has you to support her. X

 

[Athos]

Is there a difference between men who are violent to other men and men who are violent to women? Or men who are violent to their partners?

There's lots of men who are violent towards men and women, or women only, or men only. As far as I can tell, violence towards one sex doesn't tell you much about a propensity towards the other. I instinctively feel there's a moral difference, though; that men who are violent to women are despicable, because they're bullies. However that doesn't stand much scrutiny, as some men can bully other men; it probably says something about my own attitudes.

 

[Edie]

I mean, it surprised me. I started off thinking - yeah, I can do this. And even before I got to the difficult stuff I was faced with how I had minimised so much.

Sorry to hear that x

I dunno why but I’m not that bothered about mine, in fact I’m friends with him (boys Dad so my ex). He still makes me laugh the stupid twat. He’s sober now which makes a big difference, he can still be a petty selfish dickhead but he’s not violent or viscous. I don’t blame him I don’t think, we were both products of our circumstances and being out of our depth, we didn’t have an easy time and came from nothing. Such is life.

 

[Athos]

This is part of why I don't like the phrase toxic masculinity, I'm not sure there is such a thing as non-toxic masculinity.

Not sure I agree with that. I'd say there's lots of traits that society thinks of a masculine that are positive e.g. strength, courage, leadership. To me it's the idea that all men must live up them and that they're atypical of women that's really insidious.

 

[Oula]

Sorry, I realise I didn't phrase my question clearly. I meant is it a different type a man who is violent towards other men than one who is violent towards women.

I would say there is a problem with male violence full stop. Both women and men suffer at the hands of violent men.

I question why I was prepared to put up with hearing about and seeing my friend attack other men and why it was different when it was his female partner. I never felt comfortable with his violence, but I used to think it was something that wouldn't be directed against a woman he cared about. So on a personal level I felt safe. Because I thought men who attacked other men were different to men who attacked other women. Why did I think that? The first person I saw him hit was a friend of his. If he would hit a male friend why not a female one? Why not a partner? And how did the men he's hit in the past feel about it? The violent incident he previously got in trouble for was him hitting someone who'd made a racist comment to him. Was he in the right? Is physical violence every an appropriate response to words?

I would add that the way he hurt his partner was worse than any violence I know about him inflicting upon a man and I would still have found it more shocking than other things I know he's done if he had done it to a man.

 

[Athos]

Nobody really cares about male violence towards boys and men, it's the acceptable side of this, "boys being boys" etc.

Most male violence is towards other males, but 'end male violence against men' is never cried out with the same urgency as 'end male violence against women'. Boys and men are expected, broadly, to be violent, to deal with violence, to protect others from violence, and to be dealt with violently. I believe violence againt men and women is the same thing; women are physically weaker, which appeals to a certain kind of man, which is why it's seen as so contemptible and cowardly to be violent to women ... but the attitude is really: pick on someone your own size, ie. a man.

Dunno where I'm going with this; I hate violence against women and girls, have never comitted any but I have been a victim of "male violence" countless times and told I probably provoked it, deserved it, and should learn to fight back. But I'm a man so clearly different standards apply.

That ends my only post here (I hope).

Do you think the psychological impact of male violence is the same for male and female victims? Because I've been in plenty of scraps. Most times I've come off OK, but even when I haven't, it didn't really make me feel scared or anxious in the way that many women report.

 

[Oula]

Do you think the psychological impact of male violence is the same for male and female victims? Because I've been in plenty of scraps. Most times I've come off OK, but even when I haven't, it didn't really make me feel scared or anxious in the way that many women report.

I know this wasn't directed at me but I have thoughts on it.

Maybe it depends on the type of violence.

My ex boyfriend was attacked and beaten by a group of around seven men while we were together. I was attacked at the same time, I was punched and knocked out by one of the women in the group. My ex definitely got the worse of it. After the attack we became a bit "rough" with each other during arguments. Not hitting, but grabbing, pushing and restraining. There were also a couple of incidents where he refused to take no for an answer during sex. I intially excused these due to the trauma he'd been through, which I think was a big part of it. The beating had a massive impact on him and destroyed our relationship.

Even if your main concern is male violence against women, my experience suggests that male violence against men can lead the victim to become violent towards women (not always but it can).

Another male friend of mine was randomly attacked by other groups of men several times as a teenager. In lockdown I met him in a park for drinks when that was all you were allowed to do. He wouldn't stay on the park once it got dark, 25 years after he'd been beaten up.

 

[Athos]

Sorry, I realise I didn't phrase my question clearly. I meant is it a different type a man who is violent towards other men than one who is violent towards women.

I would say there is a problem with male violence full stop. Both women and men suffer at the hands of violent men.

I question why I was prepared to put up with hearing about and seeing my friend attack other men and why it was different when it was his female partner. I never felt comfortable with his violence, but I used to think it was something that wouldn't be directed against a woman he cared about. So on a personal level I felt safe. Because I thought men who attacked other men were different to men who attacked other women. Why did I think that? The first person I saw him hit was a friend of his. If he would hit a male friend why not a female one? Why not a partner? And how did the men he's hit in the past feel about it? The violent incident he previously got in trouble for was him hitting someone who'd made a racist comment to him. Was he in the right? Is physical violence every an appropriate response to words?

I would add that the way he hurt his partner was worse than any violence I know about him inflicting upon a man and I would still have found it more shocking than other things I know he's done if he had done it to a man.

To me - and many men - it feels like a big moral difference. I've got lots of mates that have hit other blokes (including, in minority of cases, in completely unjustified circumstances), but - accepting I don't know what goes on behind closed doors - I'd never knowingly be friends with a man who hits women.

Should there be that difference? Probably not, we should condemn all violence regardless of the sex of the perpetrator or victim.

 

[Athos]

I know this wasn't directed at me but I have thoughts on it.

Maybe it depends on the type of violence.

My ex boyfriend was attacked and beaten by a group of around seven men while we were together. I was attacked at the same time, I was punched and knocked out by one of the women in the group. My ex definitely got the worse of it. After the attack we became a bit "rough" with each other during arguments. Not hitting, but grabbing, pushing and restraining. There were also a couple of incidents where he refused to take no for an answer during sex. I intially excused these due to the trauma he'd been through, which I think was a big part of it. The beating had a massive impact on him and destroyed our relationship.

Even if your main concern is male violence against women, my experience suggests that male violence against men can lead the victim to become violent towards women (not always but it can).

Another male friend of mine was randomly attacked by other groups of men several times as a teenager. In lockdown I met him in a park for drinks when that was all you were allowed to do. He wouldn't stay on the park once it got dark, 25 years after he'd been beaten up.

Perhaps I've downplayed the psychological impact of violence on male victims. Again, probably my own subconscious biases.

 

[mojo pixy]

Do you think the psychological impact of male violence is the same for male and female victims?

I don't know, and I'm not going to speculate here because I don't want to make to make this about men (more than it is already) but also because I don't think it's very relevant. Male violence being committed is the problem IMO, not who it's done to or how they feel about it. But I'm probably wrong, this is lived experience talking not academic rigour.

 

[Athos]

I don't know, and I'm not going to speculate here because I don't want to make to make this about men (more than it is already) but also because I don't think it's very relevant. Male violence being committed is the problem IMO, not who it's done to or how they feel about it. But I'm probably wrong, this is lived experience talking not academic rigour.

You're right that, ultimately, male violence is the problem.

But this thread is specifically about male violence against women. Which, rightly or wrongly, society does see differently from male violence against men. I can see value to the thread in trying to understand the reasons for those differences, but, like you, would be wary of the focus drifting towards men as victims.