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Feminism and violence again women

Male violence is the thing we need to talk about really in all its forms. Tbh I'd be just as pissed off if someone took a swing at my (male) partner as at any woman. However, I think there's a massive difference in our experiences of male aggression. His is mostly violent drunks whereas mine is much more low level and all pervasive. Oula's posts were interesting about one sort becoming the other sort and how sometimes you don't even notice it happening until it does.
 
Is there a difference between men who are violent to other men and men who are violent to women? Or men who are violent to their partners?

Or does one just eventually become the other and the violence spread everywhere?

I think it's spreads, and that men who are violent have often been on the receiving end of violence, are often traumatised and it frequently escalates as lives spiral out of control. There is a significant number of people for who violence is the currency of every day life, and for who the police are the enemy rather than any kind of support or protection. In that world many men become violent as a protective mechanism - conflicts are not dealt with by the police or courts but with violence, and it's only when that violence ends in serious injury or death - or affects a middle class person who is not part of that world - that it is even really recognised. Living this way traumatises people, both men and women, and combined with things like substance misuse, crap housing, immiserating work, relentless poverty and lack of opportunity and access to support services often escalates to the point where it's very difficult for anyone to escape.

And the only answers society seems to have to those living on the margins often makes things worse, whether that's the criminal justice system or piecemeal services, frequently run by charities, who even when they are genuinely trying to make a difference are underfunded and undermined by the lack of wider social support. You can have the best hostels and refuges in the world but if there's no housing to move on into, or benefits are inadequate, or it's impossible to get decent training or any kind of education it's very rare for these services to function as they should and many people often end up cycling through the system over and over again.

It needs to be recognised that you can't fix individuals in a desperately broken system and that society has to offer a better life to those on the margins, whether they are born into it or end up there. It should be easy to get housing, or training and education, or mental health support, or help with the kids without stigma. No-one should be pushed into crime or desperation by inadequate benefits. And we need to radically rethink how as a society we manage things like drugs, sex work and survival crime. I'm not saying this would end male violence, because it's not these people doing all the violence, but it might just be the start of recognising the scale of the problem and working towards systemic change to address it. Because at the moment, for those at the bottom, violence is one of the few ways that many men feel they can reclaim some power over their lives and may even see it as a way out. And so might some women, or more commonly see that getting involved with a man like that might bring some solutions to the immediate problems they face - which is often lack of money but also a desire for security and protection in a violent world. That's not usually how it works out though. But when kids are growing up and the only people they know who aren't in poverty are men involved in organised crime then understandably some will look to that world as an escape. And it's not really, it's a trap, it demolishes most people and they usually end up in jail, but not before doing a lot of damage to themselves and those around them.

(Sorry btw Oula, kind of went off the point a bit there, but I do think once violence starts it escalates both within that individual but also affects their communities and those around them and leads to some becoming violent in response. It's like a virus once it starts, which I guess on a larger scale is why it's so hard to bring an end to wars and institutional/state violence)
 
Both my parents grew up with violent fathers.

My dad has always been very clear that he decided he was stopping the cycle of violence. My dad is a very big man (tall and a weight-lifter). He still shouts and swears and punches things. But he doesn't punch people. And I have never been afraid of him. His brother is also not violent.

My mum isn't violent and didn't get together with a violent man. As far as I know, her brother wasn't violent (he did have drink and drug problems, though). My mum's younger sister had kids young with a violent man, but when she was older she married a very nice, non-violent man.

Both my grandads are dead. And hopefully the cycles of violence in their families are dead too.
 
i think as a male the threat of violence from other men is background noise for much of our lives. from teh thuggish bully you do everything to avoid, to the thuggish copper you don't want to get arrested by. very few busy pubs (especially when i was growing up) that didn't have some brute throwing his weight about, even if its just with his own energy and bad vibes. a quick mental check - i have been beaten by gangs in london, i have had knifes pulled on me, i have had a gun pulled on me, i have been wacked for little reason in night clubs, i have seen people getting the most horrendous beatings at football. it's sick, and toxic. there's nothign inherent, nothign "biological". it's just culture and economics and nurturing and generational trauma gone sick.

is it the same as men on women violence? i don't think so. it's certainly mainly one way traffic with men doing the violence to women rather than the reverse. the power is so weighed in teh mans favour. sick. and its happening to women by men so they need to speak out. like we all need to do, against all forms of violence, ultimately.
 
was thinking about this thread the other day and how toxic the manosphere is where they put emphasis on domintation, muscles, supplements, being an "alpha" and as my own little thought experiment i drew it back to hunter gatherer times.

is not the man or women who benefits the tribe the most the one who can make peace with enemies? surely the peace maker has so much more value to the tribe than someone who provokes slaughter and thus making the whole tribe vulnerable. #anthropology #reasearch #science.
 
I went to see The Northman at the cinema on Friday and having been thinking about make violence as a result of this thread mage me like it less, I think
 
i like Jung's idea of integrating the whole of one's psyche - there is soft, hard, strong, weak, kind, angry, selfish, selfless, etc (the play of opposites) within us all. the key, i think he was saying, was to allow them into conciousness. the exact opposite of the rigid anti social awaiting the next tear up. but how do you teach that? i think fathers have a big role. i show my son me upset and vulnerable, jsut like i show him leadership and "strength". we adopt these roles and they should be multifaceted because that is the nature of the mind.
 
also i think teaching kids empathy at home is massive, massive in all of this.
Problem is as soon as they leave home. I’ve been absolutely astonished at the degree of violence at my lads school. You get to see it nowadays as it’s all filmed on phones. It’s brutal.

Neither of my two are ‘hard lads’, my youngest is a fucking geeky programming type who wears black nail varnish and listens to podcasts about economics. But even he’s been in two fist fights. I don’t think they have much choice. It’s predominantly lads, but I’ve seen at least one fight between girls too.
 
was thinking about this thread the other day and how toxic the manosphere is where they put emphasis on domintation, muscles, supplements, being an "alpha" and as my own little thought experiment i drew it back to hunter gatherer times.

is not the man or women who benefits the tribe the most the one who can make peace with enemies? surely the peace maker has so much more value to the tribe than someone who provokes slaughter and thus making the whole tribe vulnerable. #anthropology #reasearch #science.

That's going to depend on how warlike your tribe is, surely. And let's be honest, The British in general (and hardly uniquely) are pretty warlike. I'm unsure what, if anything, can be done about that. For centuries, millenia, warlike tribes (and warlike men or women who behave the same anyway) have run things, we dream collectively of better ways but we keep coming back to this blockage that manifests in large part as Male Violence, to whoever happens to be there, the easier the better. It's a nightmare really, is there a solution?

I'd say "aggression" in general should be treated a lot more harshly by the law, but defending oneself can be painted as aggression, and people lash out mindlessly when they reach some limit or another, so it's not always as clear cut as all that. Sometimes I feel as if men should be culled drastically and those left kept on reserves for purposes of reproduction. I mean that's a patently absurd idea .. right? But more absurd than empathy and kindness blossoming more and more in each successive generation? Not while capitalism stands.

So it's reserves then. As luxurious as possible please.
 
was thinking about this thread the other day and how toxic the manosphere is where they put emphasis on domintation, muscles, supplements, being an "alpha" and as my own little thought experiment i drew it back to hunter gatherer times.

is not the man or women who benefits the tribe the most the one who can make peace with enemies? surely the peace maker has so much more value to the tribe than someone who provokes slaughter and thus making the whole tribe vulnerable. #anthropology #reasearch #science.
Making peace with enemies supposes previous war. As per sun tzu, the acme of generalship is to achieve one's objectives without fighting. And that would be more beneficial than someone who can make peace.
 
That's going to depend on how warlike your tribe is, surely. And let's be honest, The British in general (and hardly uniquely) are pretty warlike. I'm unsure what, if anything, can be done about that. For centuries, millenia, warlike tribes (and warlike men or women who behave the same anyway) have run things, we dream collectively of better ways but we keep coming back to this blockage that manifests in large part as Male Violence, to whoever happens to be there, the easier the better. It's a nightmare really, is there a solution?

I'd say "aggression" in general should be treated a lot more harshly by the law, but defending oneself can be painted as aggression, and people lash out mindlessly when they reach some limit or another, so it's not always as clear cut as all that. Sometimes I feel as if men should be culled drastically and those left kept on reserves for purposes of reproduction. I mean that's a patently absurd idea .. right? But more absurd than empathy and kindness blossoming more and more in each successive generation? Not while capitalism stands.

So it's reserves then. As luxurious as possible please.
It can be a pretty successful reproductive strategy. DNA evidence shows 0.5% of the worlds men are descendants (16 million) of Ghengis Khan.
 
Rather than male on male/female isn’t the distinction “male on stranger” violence and “male on partner” violence? (where the partner is usually female).

The latter is worse because it comes with a breach of trust.
 
Rather than male on male/female isn’t the distinction “male on stranger” violence and “male on partner” violence? (where the partner is usually female).

The latter is worse because it comes with a breach of trust.
It's true that breach of trust can make things worse - but why are you trying to reframe the OP's discussion?
 
It's true that breach of trust can make things worse - but why are you trying to reframe the OP's discussion?

He wasn't, it was in response to the question is there a difference in male violence towards men and women.

And his response points to an important difference, the dynamic of an intimate relationship is very different, and violence is usually accompanied by other attempts to control their partner, I think physical violence is an escalation not the starting point.
 
As an aside for the immediately foregoing discussion.

I've just been watching an old movie in which the man grabs a woman, and, despite her protestations, kisses her passionately. Suddenly she flips from fighting him to returning the passion. Perpetuating the myth that this sort of sexual aggression will change the woman's mind from hell no to hell yes. Same as when the man throws the woman onto a bed and she melts into his arms.

With this sort of attitude in popular culture is really any surprise that men see no as yes? I hope its changing and with it men's attitudes.
 
As an aside for the immediately foregoing discussion.

I've just been watching an old movie in which the man grabs a woman, and, despite her protestations, kisses her passionately. Suddenly she flips from fighting him to returning the passion. Perpetuating the myth that this sort of sexual aggression will change the woman's mind from hell no to hell yes. Same as when the man throws the woman onto a bed and she melts into his arms.

With this sort of attitude in popular culture is really any surprise that men see no as yes? I hope its changing and with it men's attitudes.

I think it is changing very slowly but the idea that men should pursue women and any reluctance is something to be overcome - or that women are given as a prize for valour - is deeply embedded in popular culture and starts in infancy with fairy tales.
 
As an aside for the immediately foregoing discussion.

I've just been watching an old movie in which the man grabs a woman, and, despite her protestations, kisses her passionately. Suddenly she flips from fighting him to returning the passion. Perpetuating the myth that this sort of sexual aggression will change the woman's mind from hell no to hell yes. Same as when the man throws the woman onto a bed and she melts into his arms.

With this sort of attitude in popular culture is really any surprise that men see no as yes? I hope its changing and with it men's attitudes.
Yes but don’t underestimate that a lot of women like dominant men. Fifty shades of grey didn’t become a worldwide best seller by accident. Informed consent is everything of course, but enjoying the feeling of being overwhelmed by a man is very… primitive.
 
Fifty shades of grey didn’t become a worldwide best seller by accident.
In the film he turns up in her kitchen, without invitation and unannounced when he barely knows her. He literally breaks into her home and it's presented as a romantic gesture. There's no consent there. And that's just one dubious scene amongst many.

And young lads watch that, and think that's what you're supposed to do. It's horrifying.
 
is not the man or women who benefits the tribe the most the one who can make peace with enemies? surely the peace maker has so much more value to the tribe than someone who provokes slaughter and thus making the whole tribe vulnerable. #anthropology #reasearch #science.

Depends on context.
Zelensky could make peace in his country at the drop of a hat if he so wanted. Just needs to accede to whatever Putin demands.
 
In the film he turns up in her kitchen, without invitation and unannounced when he barely knows her. He literally breaks into her home and it's presented as a romantic gesture. There's no consent there. And that's just one dubious scene amongst many.

And young lads watch that, and think that's what you're supposed to do. It's horrifying.
It’s also a lot of womens fantasy so go figure.
 
Why do you think that giving into whatever Putin wants would result in peace in the Ukraine?

Some people would moan, obviously, but they could be put down easily enough with a combination of the Russian military and local thugs.
 
Some people would moan, obviously, but they could be put down easily enough with a combination of the Russian military and local thugs.
I very much regret my answer which contributed to detailing the thread. However, as a general point in the context of this specific thread - I do not accept that female complete capitulation to male violence results in peace.
 
It’s also a lot of womens fantasy so go figure.

People have all kinds of sexual fantasies that they wouldn't actually want to happen in real life. I'm not sure that justifies presenting them as somehow legitimate and putting them in a mainstream film aimed at a mass audience.

And in fact the entire film is about her being coerced with money and relentless persistence into doing something she's clearly not that sexually into. Even as a representation of BDSM it's dreadful.
 
People have all kinds of sexual fantasies that they wouldn't actually want to happen in real life. I'm not sure that justifies presenting them as somehow legitimate and putting them in a mainstream film aimed at a mass audience.

So fantasies shouldn’t be depicted in films? Or maybe just not to films aimed at the common rabble?

Although I’m sure it’s not good based on what I’ve heard.
 
People have all kinds of sexual fantasies that they wouldn't actually want to happen in real life. I'm not sure that justifies presenting them as somehow legitimate and putting them in a mainstream film aimed at a mass audience.

And in fact the entire film is about her being coerced with money and relentless persistence into doing something she's clearly not that sexually into. Even as a representation of BDSM it's dreadful.
It’s a fantasy. I think there’s an interesting discussion to be had about gender roles, dominance and submission, and male violence. But it uncomfortable.
 
People have all kinds of sexual fantasies that they wouldn't actually want to happen in real life. I'm not sure that justifies presenting them as somehow legitimate and putting them in a mainstream film aimed at a mass audience.

And in fact the entire film is about her being coerced with money and relentless persistence into doing something she's clearly not that sexually into. Even as a representation of BDSM it's dreadful.
Yes, I was raped by someone who was testing the theory of all women have rape fantasies. I didn't buy that bullshit excuse from him.
 
So fantasies shouldn’t be depicted in films? Or maybe just not to films aimed at the common rabble?

Although I’m sure it’s not good based on what I’ve heard.

It wasn't marketed as porn was it, it was marketed as a spicy romance. And yes I don't think some fantasies should be presented in a positive light in films, or that coercive and abusive men should be portrayed as romantic heroes. I'm not saying they should be banned or censored but they certainly shouldn't be celebrated, and if some of the big distributors had looked at that and said no we're not touching it then it would be no bad thing.
 
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