Feminism and violence again women

[8ball]

I very much regret my answer which contributed to detailing the thread. However, as a general point in the context of this specific thread - I do not accept that female complete capitulation to male violence results in peace.

Fair do’s. I was trying to make a similar kind of point, just about violence more generally.

 

[8ball]

It wasn't marketed as porn was it, it was marketed as a spicy romance. And yes I don't think some fantasies should be presented in a positive light in films, or that coercive and abusive men should be portrayed as romantic heroes. I'm not saying they should be banned or censored but they certainly shouldn't be celebrated, and if some of the big distributors had looked at that and said no we're not touching it then it would be no bad thing.

That’s fair enough. I think in this case there was a surprise best-selling book and so easy money to be made regardless of the quality of the final product. Aside from that, it seems this kind of main male character has been on a general decline.

 

[friendofdorothy]

So fantasies shouldn’t be depicted in films? Or maybe just not to films aimed at the common rabble?

Thats nothing to do with it. I wouldn't mind if male rape fantasy was the exception and not the rule.

Sexual violence, rape and murder of women is common everyday tv and film entertainment. Could you imagine if the reverse was true? The film and entertainment industry was predominately run by men (much like the last of the world) - so what is produced and is funded even now is predominantly male fantasies. I am struggling to think of any major films depicting rape of a man - there might be some but its not the everday plot of the soaps / detective series / benny hill / hitchcock movie etc is it?

It’s a fantasy. I think there’s an interesting discussion to be had about gender roles, dominance and submission, and male violence. But it uncomfortable.

That is definitely a big subject - perhaps deserves its own thread.

 

[8ball]

Thats nothing to do with it. I wouldn't mind if male rape fantasy was the exception and not the rule.

Not sure what you’ve been watching if you think it’s the rule, but certainly there is plenty of “kind of semi-adjacent” stuff right throughout the mainstream.

I just stuck the telly on and there is a Bond film on with a woman who is guaranteed to
be killed by a jealous villain the morning after Bond has bedded her for information and bedpost notch points.

 

[weltweit]

.. I am struggling to think of any major films depicting rape of a man -

Shawshank Redemption

 

[8ball]

Shawshank Redemption

American History X
Pulp Fiction

 

[Oula]

As an aside for the immediately foregoing discussion.

I've just been watching an old movie in which the man grabs a woman, and, despite her protestations, kisses her passionately. Suddenly she flips from fighting him to returning the passion. Perpetuating the myth that this sort of sexual aggression will change the woman's mind from hell no to hell yes. Same as when the man throws the woman onto a bed and she melts into his arms.

With this sort of attitude in popular culture is really any surprise that men see no as yes? I hope its changing and with it men's attitudes.

This video about predatory romance in Harrison Ford movies is worth a watch:
I watched them differently after this and don't feel totally comfortable about my children watching them.

enjoying the feeling of being overwhelmed by a man is very… primitive.

Is it? Or is it socially conditioned?

People have all kinds of sexual fantasies that they wouldn't actually want to happen in real life.

I certainly do. But I have hesitated to even mention them because of the next point.

Yes, I was raped by someone who was testing the theory of all women have rape fantasies. I didn't buy that bullshit excuse from him.

I am so sorry this happened to you.
One of the reasons I don't generally discuss my fantasies that I wouldn't want to happen in real life is the fear that someone might try to do them. This happens in the Cracker episode "Men Should Weep" when

Spoiler: spoiler because it's worth watching if you haven't

Male police officer Jimmy aggressively pesters female police officer Penhaligon until she admits that she sometimes fantasises about rape, then goes on to rape her later

I think there’s an interesting discussion to be had about gender roles, dominance and submission,

Yes. I certainly have fantasies about being dominated (and that's all the detail I'm comfortable going into - see above) but I think it's a personality thing as well as a gender thing. I generally feel the need to be in control all the time so some of my fantasies are about not being.

 

[smokedout]

Yes. I certainly have fantasies about being dominated (and that's all the detail I'm comfortable going into - see above) but I think it's a personality thing as well as a gender thing. I generally feel the need to be in control all the time so some of my fantasies are about not being.

Think the discrepency is lots of men have fantasies about being dominated as well, there's a whole industry that caters to it. But for some reason that is almost never represented in popular culture in the same way. A woman who tries to coerce a man into romance or sex against his will is usually presented as a bunny boiler or stalker, or the butt of a joke, but never as someone whose dogged persistence eventually wins him over.

 

[cesare]

This video about predatory romance in Harrison Ford movies is worth a watch:
I watched them differently after this and don't feel totally comfortable about my children watching them.

Is it? Or is it socially conditioned?

I certainly do. But I have hesitated to even mention them because of the next point.

I am so sorry this happened to you.
One of the reasons I don't generally discuss my fantasies that I wouldn't want to happen in real life is the fear that someone might try to do them. This happens in the Cracker episode "Men Should Weep" when

Spoiler: spoiler because it's worth watching if you haven't

Male police officer Jimmy aggressively pesters female police officer Penhaligon until she admits that she sometimes fantasises about rape, then goes on to rape her later

Yes. I certainly have fantasies about being dominated (and that's all the detail I'm comfortable going into - see above) but I think it's a personality thing as well as a gender thing. I generally feel the need to be in control all the time so some of my fantasies are about not being.

It wasn't my fantasy though. It was his, a theory he said he was testing. He said that it was a fantasy for many women. I had never expressed that to him.

 

[spanglechick]

Thing is, yes there may be times when someone might appreciate a kiss or more when consent has not been established. There are many sociologically interesting reasons why otherwise feminist women have fantasies of male dominance. But these things are going to have to fucking wait until after a couple have established that that kind of approach might be acceptable. And I’m sorry if that means that the truly spontaneous forced kiss or whatever, so beloved of Hollywood, becomes history. Tough. Because the alternative is people being kissed without consent and without wanting to be.

In the aftermath of #metoo, my much adored, ultra-charismatic sister told me that she had never been sexually assaulted. I thought this was great- but surprising. I checked: “you mean no one has ever grabbed your boobs or snaked you bum when you didn’t want them to?” “Oh yes, of course”, she said “loads of times. But only for fun”.

And that’s totally her. She’s a massive people pleaser, would never criticise or even take offense (it’s why she’s so well beloved)…. But just because it doesn’t upset her, doesn’t mean it’s ok. Doesn’t mean it isn’t assault. And frankly, it needs to fucking stop.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Shawshank Redemption

American History X
Pulp Fiction

Well they didn't come to mind as I've never seen them.

I wont ask people to name films that depict sexual violence to women - because there are too fucking many - going all the way back to the start of cinema.
Not to mention most crime dramas on tv. The point is that the depiction of abused women is so common place, it almost goes with out comment

 

[8ball]

Well they didn't come to mind as I've never seen them.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

It exists. often played for laughs though.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Regarding male on male violence leading to male on female violence Fred West, who represents the sharpest end of misogynistic violence as a serial rapist and murderer of women as well as child abuser was never known to be violent towards men and would rely on his brother in his youth when it came to scrapes with other males.

 

[ice-is-forming]

It exists. often played for laughs though.

thanks for posting that, eye opening!

 

[cesare]

It exists. often played for laughs though.

I've watched a third so far. Is it all about male on male rape?

 

[ice-is-forming]

I've watched a third so far. Is it all about male on male rape?

Mostly, lots about the US jail system.

It makes a connection between violence towards men against men that they see as weaker/ feminine etc..

 

[cesare]

Yes yes yes (not you icey, I hadn't seen your post before mine) . Male on male sexual violence and rape is also horrible. Is this thread now about horrible male on male sexual violence?

Point out how many women are abused and killed and every such thread comes back to how awful it is for men,

 

[cesare]

Mostly, lots about the US jail system.

It makes a connection between violence towards men against men that they see as weaker/ feminine etc..

It's illustrating power and subjugation using sex, as a means of domination, yes.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Yes yes yes. Male on male sexual violence and rape is also horrible. Is this thread now about horrible male on male sexual violence?

Point out how many women are abused and killed and every such thread comes back to how awful it is for men

I know, but I did appreciate that video. I'm not distracted.

I had been looking at what questions the Australian beauro of statistics asks ( & as well as others) They've got a lot of info about personal safety, family & domestic violence, sexual violence.

I know in lots of jobs this is also a screening question if it's safe to ask, and assume it's likewise in the UK?

Australia is mortified by their ( already underreported) DV stats. It's horrendous & like everywhere else the answers lay in what values the government hold. Where they put the money .
We've got a general election on may 21st & this is in the spot lite .

We have a plan Draft National Plan to End Violence against Women and Children 2022-2032 | engage.dss.gov.au

Peak bodies push to shift the burden to men
NTV | #ShiftTheBurden: 2022 Federal Election Statement

The UK has a plan Tackling violence against women and girls strategy launched

Everyone's got a plan but it's still happening

 

[cesare]

I know, but I did appreciate that video. I'm not distracted.

I had been looking at what questions the Australian beauro of statistics asks ( & as well as others) They've got a lot of info about personal safety, family & domestic violence, sexual violence.

I know in lots of jobs this is also a screening question if it's safe to ask, and assume it's likewise in the UK?

Australia is mortified by their ( already underreported) DV stats. It's horrendous & like everywhere else the answers lay in what values the government hold. Where they put the money .
We've got a general election on may 21st & this is in the spot lite .

We have a plan Draft National Plan to End Violence against Women and Children 2022-2032 | engage.dss.gov.au

Peak bodies NTV | #ShiftTheBurden: 2022 Federal Election Statement

The UK has a plan Tackling violence against women and girls strategy launched

Wiser and more knowledgeable people than me will reply. But as a normal person I'm not aware of anything like that in the UK. Or if there is, it's not massively communicated.

 

[cesare]

I didn't think you were distracted, icey, we just happened to post at the same time X

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I've watched a third so far. Is it all about male on male rape?

Part one is male on male. part two is female on male.

 

[cesare]

Part one is male on male. part two is female on male.

Thank you, I didn't get that far.

 

[cesare]

"feminism and violence against women"

Why are we now drawn in to male on male and female on male sexual violence.

What am I missing?

 

[ice-is-forming]

"feminism and violence against women"

Why are we now drawn in to male on male and female on male sexual violence.

What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. It's just going down the most well traveled path...

I couldn't believe those stats from the UK lockdown in the OP!

"There were at least 16 murders of women by men in the first three weeks of lockdown" wtaf!

 

[cesare]

You're not missing anything. It's just going down the most well traveled path...

I couldn't believe those stats from the UK lockdown in the OP!

"There were at least 16 murders of women by men in the first three weeks of lockdown"

I'm privileged, lucky, fortunate. I had other women things to worry about in lockdown - senior care.

But that threat of lockdown outcomes for women in a different space. Terrifying to be locked up in a pressure cooker situation.

 

[BigMoaner]

Regarding male on male violence leading to male on female violence Fred West, who represents the sharpest end of misogynistic violence as a serial rapist and murderer of women as well as child abuser was never known to be violent towards men and would rely on his brother in his youth when it came to scrapes with other males.

i've read all the Fred West books. And I can safely say he was one of the worst human beings to ever walk the planet. On the micro level, reducing us to individuals, easily one of the worst human beings. Other than when he was out and about doing his handy man jobs (people used to wave and say "morning Fred") which he was known and liked for in that part of gloucestershire, he was behidn doors almost constant cruelty and constant deprevaty.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

You're right that, ultimately, male violence is the problem.

But this thread is specifically about male violence against women. Which, rightly or wrongly, society does see differently from male violence against men. I can see value to the thread in trying to understand the reasons for those differences, but, like you, would be wary of the focus drifting towards men as victims.

Well part of that is it’s about systemic power imbalances and deep seated prejudice (in this case misogyny). I agree, I don’t think victim perception comparison is helpful for this thread. Maybe it would feel more acceptable if almost every discussion about man on women violence didn’t go the same way.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

The discussion on how experiencing violence can lead to becoming violent, or not, does seem more important though. And also a much rarer tangent IME.