What do you mean by 'not aggressive' though? I've been called aggressive when I've actually been politely assertive. Same for most of my female friends too.
Feminism and violence again women
- Thread starter friendofdorothy
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cesare
shady's dreams ♥
The devaluation of female lives once reproductive and/or caring value is overUntil quite recently, the murders of people over 59 were not recorded in the Crime Survey. Nearly 300 women have been murdered by their husbands and sons in a decade in the U.K.
End femicide: 278 dead – the hidden scandal of older women killed by men
The homicide toll among women over 60 in Britain is horrifying. Many cases are dismissed as accidents and not investigated. For our End Femicide campaign, we ask why society fails these victimswww.theguardian.com
When I was much younger I knew some men who absolutely lived for violence. Every conversation was about fighting and every night out ended with a ruck of some kind. Most of them ended up doing quite a bit of time but it didn't seem to change them much, if anything it made them worse. Everyone was terrified of them, but if you wanted to drink in certain pubs and clubs you kind of had to negotiate a relationship with them of sorts. But within that scene violence towards women was absolutely taboo. If word got round someone had hit their partner they would be beaten up and wouldn't be able to drink in town anymore.
Now I often wondered how much this held up behind closed doors given the hair trigger tempers a lot of them had but it was certainly a prevailing attitude that men being violent to women (or kids) was something that should not be tolerated by other men. Yet these men were the epitomy of toxic masculinity, and part of that was that it was men's duty to protect 'their' women from other men's violence (and that for a man to hit a woman was 'soft' or unmanly in some way).
I don't think it was universal. I can think of a similar social scene, with a similar bunch of violent men strutting about at the helm for who violence towards women was completely normalised, although perhaps the difference was these men were more criminal in other areas, they ran the drugs, money was involved and violence was directed at anyone, male or female who got in the way of that. But I do think the first example was more commonplace, a lot of men who were involved in what was largely recreational violence, they enjoyed it, had a code of a sort that they didn't pick on women, kids, older people, or those who were physically weaker.
I do wonder if that has changed, if the rise of the female action hero, and more depictions of women being successfully and heroically violent in popular culture, often fighting men, has diminished the taboo against male violence towards women, or risks diminishing it. But then what's the answer, that women only ever be portrayed as defenceless and in need of male protection as has traditionally been the case in culture? Does equality mean women are now expected to endure being thrust into the sphere of what was traditionally seen as male on male type violence as well as male on female violence that often happens out of sight? Is the answer to male violence women becoming more proficient at violence? Is that the best deal on offer under patriarchal capitalism? There's some real tensions here that only further point to the need to dismantle the entire system and the violence it requires to maintain it.
JimW
支那暗杀团
That's pretty close to the atmosphere I grew up in though on a more bumpkin scale out in the sticks. It strikes me (so to speak!) that it must have been externally enforced by the community to a large extent because a fair few of the individuals I remember didn't seem to have much of a bottom line.
Cloo
Banana for scale
I think the prevalence of MVAW is, like many things, one of the facets that hangs on from millennia of women being chattel.
And one sees this chattel thing reflected in the way that a lot of men feel it's enough to go 'If someone attacked/disrespected/raped my sister/girlfriend/wife I'd fucking kill him', but not say anything to his mate when his mate has cornered a girl uncomfortably at a party.
And one sees this chattel thing reflected in the way that a lot of men feel it's enough to go 'If someone attacked/disrespected/raped my sister/girlfriend/wife I'd fucking kill him', but not say anything to his mate when his mate has cornered a girl uncomfortably at a party.
It is, but I also think it was the result of communities coming out of a period where domestic violence was endemic and in which there had been no refuges, no real way to leave and it wasn't taken seriously at all by the police. You don't hit women was pushed very heavily by mothers onto sons, who had seen what their own Mothers went through (or were going through themselves) and wanted to put a stop to it in their communities in the only way that was really possible at the time - by educating their male children and stigmatising domestic violence within the only framework which existed, which was a patriarchal one.
So do you think domestic violence didn't exist in those communities or just that it was better hidden? Because the former seems pretty unlikely tbh.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
The flying scenes are shit and inaccurate too...
Cloo
Banana for scale
I think this is a really good point - you taught that it was 'cowardly' to hit women so the badness was less in 'hitting a woman' than it impugning your manliness because perhaps that seemed the best way to frame it.
No I think it was better hidden, but it did change the culture whereby many men thought it was their right and duty to physically assault their partners. Certainly their were men in my Grandad's generation, and probably my Dad's, who thought hitting their wife to keep her in line was perfectly normal behaviour and it wasn't generally considered a crime by the police. That changed, partly because of feminism, but also partly I think because of working class women drilling it into their sons that this was not acceptable and had to stop.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
If you are assertive you get called aggressive anyway - or difficult or bossy. You can't win.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
and women thought it was their lot to accept it, to tip toe around violent men and comply. What other choice did they have? where else could they go?
70s feminism challenged a lot of male behaviour but the world and the law has been very slow to change. Maybe DV isn't seen as normal behaviour but it hasn't gone away.
I think the idea that this was because of working class women drilling into their sons is a rather rose tinted view. Besides DV and femicide happens in every social class.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
I don't know where the idea that it was class-based came from. Well, yes, we can guess. My first conscious encounter was when I was an articled clerk - my principal warned me that he was acting for the wife of the stockbroker oozing bonhomie. She was life and soul of the community, charity organiser, fundraiser - no one would have had a clue that he was beating her up below the collar-line, and she never gave a hint of it away. She had her own damaged pride.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Yes, but being assertive, I couldn't give a shit what some wanker thinks of me.
Sure, you may not care but get a reputation at work (for example) of being aggressive and watch just how fast you're bypassed/not invited to meetings you should be etc.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
where i used to work a new manager joined us and by god did she announce her presence at the first staff meeting she attended, i think she put the fear of god into the senior managers the way she ripped into them. it was a glory to behold. i wouldn't want to be the person who 'forgot' to send her an invitation to a meeting, a great, great colleague.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
In my workplace I'm assertive but not aggressive. There is definitely a difference, and I've never had a reputation for being aggressive.
It's all tied up with self-belief and self-confidence, I suppose. I really wish more girls and women were taught how to come across as assertive. People really DO treat you better.
I'm assertive but not aggressive too. As I said though, that is sometimes perceived by men (mainly) as aggression. I work in a very male-dominated field and so do most of my female friends. We've pretty much all been called aggressive at some point for acting in ways that from a man would be read as assertive.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
True. I was asked why I was being difficult recently, when I was being assertive, fortunately I don't give a fuck and won the day. Think I might start a Feminism and women's self confidence thread, as there is so much to explore here.
I think it’s all part of the same thing, which is how we construct what it means to be a “man” or a “woman” and how those two constructions interrelate.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
While I'm thinking about it perhaps a Feminism and male privilege thread too
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
What same thing? and how does that relate to MVAW?
Part of the same thing that male violence against women is part of. That being what we collectively understand it to mean to be “a woman” and “a man” and how these constructed meanings interrelate with each other.
My point is that while you can hive off bits of the implications of that meaning-making to try to gain greater resolution, in doing so it’s easy to miss the interactions that are just as important to the totality
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I'm not trying to suggest it's class based at all, I was really just talking about the dynamics of a specific community. In fact when I came to London and was finally introduced to the delights of posh men I was shocked at how casually they joked about violence towards women in ways that just wouldn't have been acceptable where I was from.
I think there were other factors at play, not least a lot of people had been brought up with violent Dads, and violence towards kids was also becoming less normalised and publicly acceptable. But I don't think it's rose tinted to suggest that working class women played a significant role in changing attitudes towards domestic violence in working class communities throughout the last century even if the problem remains endemic and horrifying.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
I thought my niece was brought up to be assertive, being surrounded by assertive female role models - but it hasn't saved her from men's sexual violence, which saddens and horrifies me.
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