Feminism and violence again women

[Red Cat]

The use of academic terms excludes as much as it includes, and it is based upon a hierarchy of authority. For me, men being genuinely respectful of women on this thread is to let women's voices be heard rather than imposing ours and if that means men taking a step back and terms being used in a variety of ways so be it. I differ from kabbes in feeling that I don't have a monopoly on definitions

Whose voice? You criticise everything I say, without fail.

 

[cesare]

Violence against the broadest and not according to a tightly defined definition of "women" will refocus the thread upon male violence, I think.

 

[Pickman's model]

Whose voice? You criticise everything I say, without fail.

I don't think there's a requirement for anyone here to agree with anyone else and not criticise - urban is the home of (hopefully) robust and lively debate. I haven't sought you out to disagree with, quite the reverse imo. I haven't I think dismissed what you've said but shown where and how I differ from you.

 

[Red Cat]

Violence against the broadest and not according to a tightly defined definition of "women" will refocus the thread upon male violence, I think.

I haven't seen any definition of women made on the thread. There were thoughts about social constructions of 'masculinity' and 'femininity' and how they are created in opposition to each other, and how this partly shapes, or frustrates, the experience of 'being a woman'. That wasn't an attempt to define women.

 

[Red Cat]

So, back to male violence, my view is one aspect, one driver, of male violence is an attempt to get rid of the 'femininity' within, 'weakness', vulnerability, dependency etc.

 

[Athos]

This reminded me of an article I once read about "Pick Up Artists" who are men (of course they are) that treat chatting up women and getting them into bed like a sport basically. And there is a whole subculture around that which is pretty sad and will probably not surprise anyone here.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, one of these pathetic grifters went to Denmark and found that his shit simply did not work there at all. The reasons mentioned are that Denmark is more equal and has better support systems for women, than most other places.

So I think that maybe shows what can be done. It's just how to get there...

Actually here it is - the language is very "laddish" and obviously it is all the fault of the women for not being "real women".

Cockblocked by Redistribution: A Pick-up Artist in Denmark - Dissent Magazine

As infamous pick-up artist Roosh himself admits in "Don’t Bang Denmark," Nordic social democracy doesn’t support his kind.

www.dissentmagazine.org

I worked with a bloke who gave up a well-paid, full-time, secure job to become a PAU, offering seminars and one-to-one coaching, as well as instructional videos. Quite apart from the politics and ethics of it, I thought he was mad, and that it'd never take off. But I was wrong, he's making money hand over fist; it seems there's a lot of very sad and desperate men out there with money to burn.

He was always incredibly 'successful'* with women, but he was handsome, charismatic, and confident; I'd be fascinated to know whether his 'techniques' work for the sort of men who are his clients.

But the point of the story was that he had a bizarre attitude towards women; not just a lack of respect, but he seemed to actively dislike them for anything other than sex.

*depending on your measure of success, I suppose.

 

[killer b]

I worked with a bloke who gave up a well-paid, full-time, secure job to become a PAU, offering seminars and one-to-one coaching, as well as instructional videos. Quite apart from the politics and ethics of it, I thought he was mad, and that it'd never take off. But I was wrong, he's making money hand over fist; it seems there's a lot of very sad and desperate men out there with money to burn.

He was always incredibly 'successful'* with women, but he was handsome, charismatic, and confident; I'd be fascinated to know whether his 'techniques' work for the sort of men who are his clients.

But the point of the story was that he had a bizarre attitude towards women; not just a lack of respect, but he seemed to actively dislike them for anything other than sex.

*depending on your measure of success, I suppose.

I think to sign up for that PUA stuff you have to hold women in complete contempt - how would you be able to do it otherwise?

 

[cesare]

I haven't seen any definition of women made on the thread. There were thoughts about social constructions of 'masculinity' and 'femininity' and how they are created in opposition to each other, and how this partly shapes, or frustrates, the experience of 'being a woman'. That wasn't an attempt to define women.

Maybe I misunderstood #371 ?

 

[Athos]

I think to sign up for that PUA stuff you have to hold women in complete contempt - how would you be able to do it otherwise?

Yeah, I think that's a prerequisite. Just seems ironic that a whole life is dedicated to trying to attract a 'thing' - as they see women - they hate. What was even stranger, though, is that women would fawn over him; not only his looks, many said they were convinced he was a nice guy deep down. Had they heard him in male company they'd have been shocked.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I think to sign up for that PUA stuff you have to hold women in complete contempt - how would you be able to do it otherwise?

There's a component of the PUA stuff that seems really alienated. That treats gaining sexual partners like playing increasingly demanding levels of a video game, essentially.

There absolutely isn't a recognition that there is a common humanity between PUAs and their targets.

I suspect there is a route towards this stuff from spending far too much time in your bedroon playing video games and watching porn.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Surely 'being a woman' is meaningful only in contrast to the meaning of 'being a man' otherwise it would simply be being a human.

I think for too long: man = human.
By that definition women were 'other' and less than fully human. Women were defined only in relation to men and in belonging to men. The world, infrastucture, langauge, arts, codes and laws, were designed by men for men. This is the problem.

There has been so much unpleasant argument in public about what it means to be a woman - I think we need to define more what it means to be 'a man'

It would be lovely if we could all just be fully human and the gender binary didn't exist - but our reality is nowhere near that. From birth certicates, to medical treatments, to rates of pay, to criminal justice system .

The binary is especially notable in rates of violence - hence this thread.

 

[mojo pixy]

There has been so much unpleasant argument in public about what it means to be a woman - I think we need to define more what it means to be 'a man'

I totally agree, women have born the brunt of gender-non-conformity, in being the sex that seems to have to make all the adjustments regarding their conception of themselves and yeah, "what it means to be a woman". I would expect even more unpleasantness if men were made to question what 'being a man' means in the same way. But it needs to happen; men IMO are being very complacent around this issue. Not that I have any instant answers though.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

men IMO are being very complacent around this issue.

Well hopefully we can all manage to keep the unpleasantness off this thread. I'm not sure which issue you mean in this bit, though? Violence against women, gender non-conformity or what "being a man" entails?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Indeed, the meaning of terms like the ones I used (eg “compliance”) or “aggressive” are themselves socially determined, not objective realities.

I've heard this before but I don't think it's universal. I've read that young girls get called 'bossy' where as boys don't but I do describe my son as bossy. And I would describe assertive women as assertive.

 

[mojo pixy]

Well hopefully we can all manage to keep the unpleasantness off this thread. I'm not sure which issue you mean in this bit, though? Violence against women, gender non-conformity or what "being a man" entails?

I mean put like that, all of it really .. but specifically my response was around the cultural question, "What does it mean to be a ___?" Because of trans issues and the rise of non-binary culture (my term) that question is being pointed at women a lot, but less so men. Which is odd, annoying, and a bit useless.

Sorry for the derail**

**Actually maybe it's not. Are men somehow "intrinsically violent"? Is violence an instinct, that needs educating out of us? If not, why then does violence appear universally among men? Why do so many of us resort to it so quickly?

Anyway, that's a bit more on topic. No more answers though.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I mean put like that, all of it really .. but specifically my response was around the cultural question, "What does it mean to be a ___?" Because of trans issues and the rise of non-binary culture (my term) that question is being pointed at women a lot, but less so men. Which is odd, annoying, and a bit useless.

Sorry for the derail.

OK, thanks for replying. I'll probably not get into that here.

I will say that I've thought quite a lot about "what does it mean to be a man". But there does need to be more of it, generally and by me.

And I agree that it might get quite messy. This just showed up on my twitter feed and shows you how "being a man" is being used as political capital by the far right:

The Fascist Cult of Masculinity

The history of the Right is a history of weaponizing insecure men. What we're watching is a troubling portent of what's to come

jaredyatessexton.substack.com

It also shows you that (whether rightly or wrongly) some men feel that their identity as men is being threatened.

This is a thing I wrote which includes a bit on masculinity and quite a lot on male feminists:

Dalston Mens Group (1977)

Few figures are so universally mocked as the male feminist. Dalston Mens Group seemed too good to be true when I chanced upon it. An almost perfect artefact of “right on Hackney”, like …

hackneyhistory.wordpress.com

 

[Red Cat]

I think for too long: man = human.
By that definition women were 'other' and less than fully human. Women were defined only in relation to men and in belonging to men. The world, infrastucture, langauge, arts, codes and laws, were designed by men for men. This is the problem.

There has been so much unpleasant argument in public about what it means to be a woman - I think we need to define more what it means to be 'a man'

It would be lovely if we could all just be fully human and the gender binary didn't exist - but our reality is nowhere near that. From birth certicates, to medical treatments, to rates of pay, to criminal justice system .

The binary is especially notable in rates of violence - hence this thread.

I'd argue that men don't just 'other' women, they 'other' aspects of themselves, by seeing them as 'feminine' and to be denied or got rid of. I think this is linked to some male violence.

 

[Cloo]

So, back to male violence, my view is one aspect, one driver, of male violence is an attempt to get rid of the 'femininity' within, 'weakness', vulnerability, dependency etc.

To my mind, so much is based on the ong-held narratives society has about men and women, eg:

Men = strong (physically and morally), straightforward, objective, logical, honest, trustworthy.
Women = weak (physically and morally), confusing and self-contradictory, emotional, illogical, manipulative, untrustworthy.

Just as well men were given physical strength to manage those manipulative, morally weak women! And gay men are characterised the same as women in this narrative.

 

[mango5]

Just caught up with the thread. Picking up a different theme. It's not only Red Cat who has mentioned this but these quotes were clearest for me.

I have experienced increasing unwanted attention from men over the years. It's been most prevalent in the most recent decade (40-50). Perhaps I'm noticing it more but I don't think it's that. I find it quite unfathomable tbh. It generally happens it the street, more often daytime than night. It doesn't seem to matter what I'm wearing and happens a few times a year when I'm walking down the street with Mr mango.

I think there is a decrease with age for women isn't there? Females at most risk of rape are adolescent girls, worldwide.

I don't know about the stats or previous conversations here but speaking of my personal experience, I am much less at risk of sexual violence from strangers or near strangers or acquaintances or casual partners than I was as a teen and young adult. It's not something I think about in relation to myself at all really.

I don't remember it happening to me as much as a teenager or in my 20s compared to now.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'd argue that men don't just 'other' women, they 'other' aspects of themselves, by seeing them as 'feminine' and to be denied or got rid of. I think this is linked to some male violence.

true

 

[trashpony]

That’s interesting/depressing mango5 - it’s definitely happened less to me as I’ve got older (although I’m 50-60). Maybe it was worse last decade? I do remember a very insistent young man at a club when I was in my early 40s and in the end I had to shout my age at him to make him fuck off. Age acts as a repellant spray much like a boyfriend).

 

[friendofdorothy]

I have experienced increasing unwanted attention from men over the years. It's been most prevalent in the most recent decade (40-50). Perhaps I'm noticing it more but I don't think it's that. I find it quite unfathomable tbh. It generally happens it the street, more often daytime than night. It doesn't seem to matter what I'm wearing and happens a few times a year when I'm walking down the street with Mr mango.


I don't remember it happening to me as much as a teenager or in my 20s compared to now.

I found most unwanted attention from men only stopped when I was well over 50 and menopausal. It started at puberty and was most frequent from 20-40. My appearance or clothing, and time of day makes no difference. I wonder if it was to do with fertility and pheromones?

 

[mango5]

I just turned 50. I wonder if the increasing presence of 'desirable' middle-aged women on TV and film has extended the range of potential objects of unwanted attention

 

[8ball]

Men = strong (physically and morally), straightforward, objective, logical, honest, trustworthy.
Women = weak (physically and morally), confusing and self-contradictory, emotional, illogical, manipulative, untrustworthy.

I’m not sure who aside from fairly hardline misogynists would come out with that list.

 

[smokedout]

I’m not sure who aside from fairly hardline misogynists would come out with that list.

That's not how it works though. People don't necessarily verbally express or even consciously conceive the biases they have, that doesn't mean they aren't present to some extent in every social interaction.

 

[Cloo]

I’m not sure who aside from fairly hardline misogynists would come out with that list.

Of course no one literally says or thinks that but it unconsciously underlies attitudes... and not just men's. It kind of was the official line in Judeo-Christian societies for millenia, and while no one's saying it out loud, you hear it coming through in various situations. For example in the scepticism towards women who bring an accusation of rape, especially against someone well known - you get people (men and women) saying 'What does she have against him?'/'What's she trying to get out of this?' (women are manipulative and untrustworthy). You hear it from abusive men trying to discredit ex-partners - 'She's crazy! She's trying to turn everyone against me!' (women are unstable and again, manipulative), of course Steve couldn't have hit Mandy, she's jusy being a crazy woman who is trying to revenge for some problem she made up with lies because it's the only weapon those weak women have! Again, no one's literally saying that, but they easily side with Steve because they have heard so much, after all, about how women are 'crazy' and seeing as Steve seems like such a nice guy it's more plausible that Mandy is just pissed off at him and making shit up.

 

[trashpony]

I hadn’t really thought before about the headspace this takes: The Cost of Managing Men's Anger

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I've heard this before but I don't think it's universal. I've read that young girls get called 'bossy' where as boys don't but I do describe my son as bossy. And I would describe assertive women as assertive.

It’s not about universality, it’s about trends. The trend is that it’s used much more to describe assertive women than assertive men.

Tbh it’s a word I dislike and don’t find very useful regardless.

 

[Red Cat]

Just caught up with the thread. Picking up a different theme. It's not only Red Cat who has mentioned this but these quotes were clearest for me.

I have experienced increasing unwanted attention from men over the years. It's been most prevalent in the most recent decade (40-50). Perhaps I'm noticing it more but I don't think it's that. I find it quite unfathomable tbh. It generally happens it the street, more often daytime than night. It doesn't seem to matter what I'm wearing and happens a few times a year when I'm walking down the street with Mr mango.





I don't remember it happening to me as much as a teenager or in my 20s compared to now.

I'm the same age as you. My life is very different to when I was younger, I put myself in risky situations then (not blaming myself, just noting the difference). I now live in the suburbs, I don't walk a lot anymore, I'm in a car to go to work, I don't go to pubs or bars very often, and I never go to clubs, Parties are always with people I know. For years, if i was out on the high street, I'd be with my kids. I did cross the road the other day because there were two men working and looking that I spotted from afar, because it still feels uncomfortable. I've been thinking lately that being in a car makes a massive difference (except you're then open to attack by male drivers if you dare get in their way - once a man extremely aggressively shouted that I was a fucking bitch because I didn't think I could get passed a car parked in the road)

 

[mango5]

I'm out and about a lot, walking around central London and on public transport. Bus stops seem to be a fave spot, and streets in general. Pubs not so much. Dunno if that's an age thing. It's probably easier/more deniable for the culprits outdoors than in a closed space. Fewer potential witnesses because everyone's only in one spot for a few minutes.

It's not overt violence but it is annoying at best and can be sinister/scary.