8ball
Decolonise colons!
Easy and cheap writing - insert dead woman as plot McGuffin to create instant drama.
Feminism and violence again women
- Thread starter friendofdorothy
- Start date
Easy and cheap writing - insert dead woman as plot McGuffin to create instant drama.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
I’d be interested if anyone has come across any legal theory or even ethics based research on how a society could effectively deal with rape inside a judicial system.
Starting from the presumptions that:
the resources of the state ( or community or workers paradise) will always be greater than the individual.
A rule of law system requires that individuals facing the loss of their liberty should not have to prove their innocence.
There should only be a requirement that people facing punishment by the state need only introduce reasonable doubt.
( All both common law and civil law countries with the rule of law seem to stick to these.)
Sadly a very large percentage of rapes and other sexual assaults take place either in relationships or between people who know each other. And in a very significant percentage the issue isn’t whether or not the activity took place, but if consent was given, so it often comes down to ‘is one person’s account so hugely more believable than another's’, to a point where there is no reasonable doubt.
I believe, anecdotally, that ‘stranger rapes’have a similar conviction rate, at least in the UK as non sexual stranger violent crime. Which aren’t brilliant TBF.
I can’t see how this circle could be squared. Which is why I think solutions need to come from outwith the criminal justice system. But interested to read any proposals that have been made to address this.
Starting from the presumptions that:
the resources of the state ( or community or workers paradise) will always be greater than the individual.
A rule of law system requires that individuals facing the loss of their liberty should not have to prove their innocence.
There should only be a requirement that people facing punishment by the state need only introduce reasonable doubt.
( All both common law and civil law countries with the rule of law seem to stick to these.)
Sadly a very large percentage of rapes and other sexual assaults take place either in relationships or between people who know each other. And in a very significant percentage the issue isn’t whether or not the activity took place, but if consent was given, so it often comes down to ‘is one person’s account so hugely more believable than another's’, to a point where there is no reasonable doubt.
I believe, anecdotally, that ‘stranger rapes’have a similar conviction rate, at least in the UK as non sexual stranger violent crime. Which aren’t brilliant TBF.
I can’t see how this circle could be squared. Which is why I think solutions need to come from outwith the criminal justice system. But interested to read any proposals that have been made to address this.
Last edited:
Athos
Well-Known Member
There's things that could be done around the edges*, but meaningful change will not come until juries' (i.e. wider society's) attitudes change. As long as people think that a woman was asking for it by being drunk, or kissing someone, I can't see how a significant proportion of rapes will result in conviction.
*To at least make the trial less traumatic e.g. stricter limits on discussing victims' sexual history; judges ensuring defence advocates don't bully victims; harsher punishment for breaches of victims anonymity; better victim support before, during, and after trial, etc., etc..
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
until they manage to get a significant proportion of rapes into the court room there'll never be anything approaching that rate of conviction. meaningful change has to start with properly investigating, charging and prosecuting those rapes reported. when you're dealing with a negligible proportion of rapes reported getting into a court let alone getting a conviction those notions won't change.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Agreed, I don’t really see anyway of dealing with most sexual violence inside a criminal justice system. Unless society chose to accept a huge number of convictions of people who hadn’t actually done anything.
Although I suppose some might consider that to be a price some would consider worth paying to reduce sexual violence?
Last edited:
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that too. Police need to approach with an open mind. Though, without wanting to give them too much benefit of the doubt, I wonder if sometimes they don't bother because they can see that it'll come down to one person's word against another's, such that the chances of conviction are minimal no matter what they do. Though I would be keen to see them pursue even those 'no hoper' cases, as it'd give some closure to the victims, and send a message that such crimes will always be pursued. And I guess we could see the odd unexpected conviction.
Athos
Well-Known Member
That would be a dangerous road to go down. It'd adversely affect the most vulnerable, and be applied in a racist way. And then extended to other crimes. Accepting a state convicting the innocent isn't the best way to solve a problem that had its roots in social attitudes.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
But how would one deal with the massive disparity required in belief in justice systems with anything akin to ‘beyond reasonable doubt’?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i think you're right, but that the police investigation seems, from what one hears and reads in the media, to be less an investigation of the incident or alleged offender than of the victim who's come forwards. and it seems that this is a standard way for the cops to proceed, almost as though they want to deter women from reporting rape
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
I’m going to stop after this as we are down to three men discussing violence against women.
I’m not sure it’s ‘the police don’t put the work in’- after all it was only 2017/18 we had the massive outrage about too much investigation in digital forensics resulting in significant unused material schedules . Or ‘digital rape’ as so many commentators called it.
Last edited:
Oula
Voice of a Goddess Giant
There were some points I wanted to make about porn, but can't remember them all. I'll try, though.
I have been professionally involved in the porn industry and used to watch porn. I used to think that women could be making a positive choice to be involved in porn and were very well paid for doing it. I don't think that now. I don't think it is a choice that is made in a vacuum, it is born out of society's attitude to women and I no longer think it can be anything other than exploitative. The type of coercion that has been discussed about men pushing women to do sexual things they don't want to do (pestering, emotional blackmail, getting them drunk, making them feel uncomfortable, making them feel they have to etc up to threats, violence and force) is also used in the porn industry by men who are very skilled at it and do it for a living. Maybe some women are making a completely freely consenting choice about the actions they are taking in photos and on screen (I have my doubts) but I don't see how I, as a consumer, can tell if the woman I am watching is in that position or of I'm watching a sexual assault. So I no longer feel comfortable about watching it.
Instead, I now consume erotic fiction. It's all words, it's all made up, no one is being abused in front of me. But very often very violent acts/forced anal/rape/the woman being verbally abused appear suddenly without warning. So while no one has been abused in the making of it I wonder if it could encourage abuse, as in the comment earlier on about women turning up with injuries consistent with acts that are popular in porn.
There's also the issue of the "violent sex" defence, where men who have killed women claim that the woman consented to strangulation during sex and they were just so carried away in the moment that they didn't realise they were actually killing her.
I have been professionally involved in the porn industry and used to watch porn. I used to think that women could be making a positive choice to be involved in porn and were very well paid for doing it. I don't think that now. I don't think it is a choice that is made in a vacuum, it is born out of society's attitude to women and I no longer think it can be anything other than exploitative. The type of coercion that has been discussed about men pushing women to do sexual things they don't want to do (pestering, emotional blackmail, getting them drunk, making them feel uncomfortable, making them feel they have to etc up to threats, violence and force) is also used in the porn industry by men who are very skilled at it and do it for a living. Maybe some women are making a completely freely consenting choice about the actions they are taking in photos and on screen (I have my doubts) but I don't see how I, as a consumer, can tell if the woman I am watching is in that position or of I'm watching a sexual assault. So I no longer feel comfortable about watching it.
Instead, I now consume erotic fiction. It's all words, it's all made up, no one is being abused in front of me. But very often very violent acts/forced anal/rape/the woman being verbally abused appear suddenly without warning. So while no one has been abused in the making of it I wonder if it could encourage abuse, as in the comment earlier on about women turning up with injuries consistent with acts that are popular in porn.
There's also the issue of the "violent sex" defence, where men who have killed women claim that the woman consented to strangulation during sex and they were just so carried away in the moment that they didn't realise they were actually killing her.
One of the glaring problems is the problem of false or malicious accusations. I don’t think these excuse the piss poor rate of investigation or conviction, but it’s the problem at the heart of why it’s difficult to secure convictions. It’s also massively off putting for women- the fear of being accused of lying over something like that is pretty horrific.
It never even occurred to me to report any of my experiences. It wasn’t a conscious choice, I guess it must have just subconsciously seemed utterly pointless. At best your word against his.
Did you watch the latest Louis Thereaux on porn in the meetoo era. It was really good I thought. The younger generation have a much better attitude towards consent and involvement in the porn industry.
Oula
Voice of a Goddess Giant
Yes, I did. That did seem to be the case. But I was quite disturbed by that man whose niche was relieving young actresses of their anal virginity. I couldn't figure out if he was lying to everyone else or lying to himself about what he was doing being ok. And the way the young women consented to that is the type of thing that concerns me - I don't really feel that that is a free and positive choice, more something they felt the had to do to be successful as the industry demanded it. But who am I to say that about other people's choices?
Oh god he was vile!!!!! Yeah it was a good example of coercion really. Let me take your anal virginity cos I’ve got a small cock and you’ll get some publicity vomit
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
Yeah, it'd be great for that to die a death.
Last edited:
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
this is very true. Men often turn angry when rejected. Saying no is not an option. I've invented a husband who is a boxer before now.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Who was it that said that a man is afraid of being laughed at and women are afraid of being murdered.
There are many women who rarely feel safer.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
I think the advances you describe are so common but so many men deny it is an issue, and think they are only being friendly, they they are not doing anything, and what is the matter with me. That we should be grateful for the unwanted compliment or approach. They have no idea how creepy or frightening they are.
It's the the switch between 'you are so pretty' to 'you fucking bitch' within minutes that makes women fear potiental violence. The men who follow a woman about the room, interupt the conversation with friends or sit at your table uninvited - are alarming, experience tells me those are the men who can switch.
Last edited:
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
Margaret Atwood, I think.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
There seemed to be an idea that if its not counted it doesn't exist. It may be annotodatal but I can't think of many of my women friends who has not suffered some sort of violence at the hands of men, including DV and rape.
I've never been seriously attacked or raped but I have been groped, grabbed, slapped and followed home all a long time ago now. I feel I have got off lightly. There was no where I could have reported those sort of incidences. No one counted, asked or surveyed.
Last edited:
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
I hear from my nieces that groping on trains, on the streets and in social situations is depressingly common. Dont think they have ever reported it.
Oula
Voice of a Goddess Giant
The one time I very publicly and loudly called someone out for pestering me and touching me without my permission in a pub I didn't get much support from either the bar staff or the people I was with. I got the distinct impression they'd all rather I wasn't making a fuss.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
That is shitty of the staff especially.
Oula
Voice of a Goddess Giant
Tbf they did deal with it in the end but their first response was "but he's an old man." to which I said "well then he should know better"
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
What does this even mean? That you should tolerate it because he's old? That he should be respected/indulged because he's old? That he's harmless because he's old? WTF? It manages to be both ageist and misogynist.
Very nice come back from you, Oula!
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
at it happening but 
at that
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
It is only one study, but by chance the researchers conducted it during the wake of Sarah Everard, so this became the largest ever survey of women about their experiences of sexual violence. I doubt any of the women on this thread will be at all surprised, but I saw someone mention around figures:
www.victimfocus.org.uk
Women's Experiences of Violence and Abuse - VictimFocus Study
A recent study conducted on the prevalence of violence against women and girls since birth. The largest study of its kind, with over 22,000 respondents from the UK.
It’s a bit annoying that they repeatedly say in their methods that the sample is self selecting and they don’t seek to generalise, then their headline is ‘99.3% of UK women…’. They need to say 99.3% of our self-selecting sample of UK women.It is only one study, but by chance the researchers conducted it during the wake of Sarah Everard, so this became the largest ever survey of women about their experiences of sexual violence. I doubt any of the women on this thread will be at all surprised, but I saw someone mention around figures:
Women's Experiences of Violence and Abuse - VictimFocus Study
A recent study conducted on the prevalence of violence against women and girls since birth. The largest study of its kind, with over 22,000 respondents from the UK.
Similar threads
