Feminism and violence again women

[dessiato]

The thing is we don't really know how many men commit rape. You certainly can't go by convictions, as less than half of cases that go to court result in convictions. You can't go by charges, as fewer than 6% of those reported result in charges. And you certainly can't go by reported figures, as most people don't ever report it. Rape Crisis says 5 out of 6 victims don't. That's a huge number of men getting away with it.

And you can't go by men's self-perception, since so many don't even recognise their behaviour as rape. But if you ask women, you'd find a shocking number of them have experienced it. But you'd have to conduct a truly anonymous survey to get any sort of picture, as it's not information that many people are going to volunteer even to close friends or partners. Rape Crisis reckons about 5 million in the UK. Add to that the fact that some of those 5 million women will have suffered many times at the hands of one man or more than one man.

And add to that all the 'lesser' offences on that sexual domination pyramid at the bottom of which lies an unexpressed and unacknowledged feeling of entitlement.

Rape, sexual assault and child sexual abuse statistics

Want to know how many people are raped, sexually abused or sexually assaulted? We have key statistics from trusted sources showing the scale of the problem.

rapecrisis.org.uk

The fact that men do not recognise their abuse as abuse is very much the heart of the problem I think. If I have a perceived right to your body, because I’m a man, how can I be expected to behave except abusively? Sadly too many men think that you do not have the right to your own body autonomy. We see this in the, for example, US states withdrawing women’s access to legal abortion.

As an aside from this, I have a relative who, from time to time, used to send me “humorous” porn pics. I asked him how he will feel when his daughters are 18 if someone is behaving that same way about his girls. I’d like to think it has made him rethink his position. I don’t get any porn “jokes“ anymore so I’m hopeful.

 

[Poot]

Manosphere - it’s a an online ecosystem of mysoginistic men, mainly bitter about their lives or bitter because women are not having sex with them. It’s dressed up as self improvement but it’s creepy, built on hatred, and truly dangerous in my view

This is a thing I find truly terrifying. An 'incel' in my home town shot 5 people dead* and for a while there was some discussion about whether he was a 'terrorist.' I found it very frustrating hearing straight white men talking about whether he was a terrorist because from where women are sitting, we are hated with such intensity that all these attacks are terror attacks. What they meant was, a) was I personally at risk and b) was he Asian. To us it really doesn't matter what flavour of women-hater it is.

*The victims were men and women but he perceived the men to have a happy family life. I believe incels are also angry at these men because they perceive they are 'under the thumb' of women. It's just such a weird, hate-filled little world.

 

[kabbes]

And you can't go by men's self-perception, since so many don't even recognise their behaviour as rape. But if you ask women, you'd find a shocking number of them have experienced it. But you'd have to conduct a truly anonymous survey to get any sort of picture, as it's not information that many people are going to volunteer even to close friends or partners. Rape Crisis reckons about 5 million in the UK. Add to that the fact that some of those 5 million women will have suffered many times at the hands of one man or more than one man.

This is a really important part of it, I think, and it’s what I had in mind when I was banging on about our meaning being constructed through our culture. Why do men not recognise some of their behaviour as rape? I don’t think it’s because they are lying to themselves. It’s not because they’re burying the truth. It’s because, I think, there is no essential truth of what rape is in the first place. Rape doesn’t “exist” in some predetermined form. It has been conceptualised by people and they can have different concepts of it. Those different concepts come from understanding the world in different ways. The key for eliminating these rapes is to somehow foster the intersubjective understanding of what rape means, ie for the man pushing at sex when he shouldn’t be to have an empathic understanding of how that is being experienced by his partner and thus not want to do it.

(Just to spell it out, this element of it is obviously talking about a particular category of violence in the form of a particular type of rape. I’m not suggesting it applies universally to all male violence, although there are parts that do.)

 

[bluescreen]

As an aside from this, I have a relative who, from time to time, used to send me “humorous” porn pics. I asked him how he will feel when his daughters are 18 if someone is behaving that same way about his girls. I’d like to think it has made him rethink his position. I don’t get any porn “jokes“ anymore so I’m hopeful.

This is a step forward. But to echo weepiper it is still treating women in relation to men instead of in their own right. Rather, ask them how they would feel if the people in the pics were men.

 

[dessiato]

This is a step forward. But to echo weepiper it is still treating women in relation to men instead of in their own right. Rather, ask them how they would feel if the people in the pics were men.

It's only a start, yes. But if we can get men to start seeing, remembering, that the objectified woman is someone's daughter/sister/wife/mother then, hopefully, they'll start to understand where they're going wrong. Maybe they'll then start to consider women as other than a commodity to be used for their gratification.

 

[weepiper]

It's only a start, yes. But if we can get men to start seeing, remembering, that the objectified woman is someone's daughter/sister/wife/mother then, hopefully, they'll start to understand where they're going wrong. Maybe they'll then start to consider women as other than a commodity to be used for their gratification.

It's just another kind of objectification. It's looking through the wrong end of the telescope as a means of addressing the problem. Besides, lots of these men will be abusive in their relationships with 'their' women as well so it doesn't help in those circumstances. Men can be very good at appearing on the surface/to the public to be not that kind of man, but their girlfriends/sisters/mothers have a very different experience. Every time there's a family annihilation or brutal wife murder in the press there will be a vox pop from a sad neighbour telling us what a lovely guy he was and they can't believe it.

 

[purenarcotic]

It's only a start, yes. But if we can get men to start seeing, remembering, that the objectified woman is someone's daughter/sister/wife/mother then, hopefully, they'll start to understand where they're going wrong. Maybe they'll then start to consider women as other than a commodity to be used for their gratification.

It is the start, but shouldn’t be the end goal. Because women shouldn’t be respected because they are seen as being connected to a man, but because she is a human being in her own right. It’s a bit like when women have to make up a boyfriend when rejecting an advance from a man in a club or whatever. The hypothetical man is respected more than the woman stood in front of him. It is also safer to say you’re connected to a man, real or not, than to just say ‘look I’m not interested’.

 

[Oula]

I think seeing a woman as another person, a whole person in her own right that is equal to a man, is what should be aimed for. Not seeing her as someone else's daughter/sister/mother/wife/possesion. I think this is extremely important for a couple of reasons.

Don't think about how you would feel if someone treated your sister/mother like that. Think how you would feel if someone treated you like that. Because it is you we should be equal to, not the other oppressed women in your life. We should all be equal to you.

The other reason I think this is very important is I think saying to someone "how would you feel if someone treated you sister/mother etc like that?" plays into the distinction between "good" and "bad" women. The old madonna/whore thing. It gives me an excuse to treat "bad" women badly, because their mother/sister would never be doing something like that. You can rape, beat, kill a prostitute and have no cognitive dissonance between how you think about and treat your wife or mother or sister because they don't behave like that, but the whore was asking for it. Maybe this seems like an extreme example. What about you can leer at/shout out lewd comments to a woman in skimpy clothing? The women you are close to don't dress like that. You can put your hand up the short skirt of a women in the club queue in front of you and into her knickers, as has happened to me. I bet he wouldn't have done that to his mum. I bet he'd be angry if someone else did that to his mum. But his mum probably wouldn't have been queuing up for a club in a short skirt.

This ties into the whole "she was only walking home" thing about Sarah Everard. Yes she was and it was scary and a tradgedy. She was a "good girl" wearing sensible clothes walking home early in the evening. I've walked home very late so drunk I can hardly stay on the pavement. It would still have been wrong to rape and kill me. It would still be wrong to rape and kill a sex worker. Asking men to imagine women as being their wives and sisters and mothers and daughters excuses them to behave terribly to women that they perceive as not being as well behaved or respectable as their wives and sisters and mothers and daughters.

We deserve not to be catcalled, whistled at, groped, attacked, beaten, raped and killed because we are people and because for one person to do something like that to another person is wrong. Not because you can imagine that we're your mum.

 

[8ball]

It is the start, but shouldn’t be the end goal. Because women shouldn’t be respected because they are seen as being connected to a man, but because she is a human being in her own right. It’s a bit like when women have to make up a boyfriend when rejecting an advance from a man in a club or whatever. The hypothetical man is respected more than the woman stood in front of him. It is also safer to say you’re connected to a man, real or not, than to just say ‘look I’m not interested’.

It’s not that they gain respect from being connected to a man, just that the respect that is afforded another woman is afforded to them by making the connection. Women objectify men too, where I work the women used to have a hotness league table, possibly still do, though that was when it was a startup with generally very young staff..

And it’s not just women that invent a partner when approached in a club. It’s gentler and cuts off any attempts at persuasion.

From some of the talk on here you’d think we were different species.

 

[purenarcotic]

Statistically DV shot up during lockdown; a lot of the women I spoke to said it wasn’t that the abuse wasn’t ongoing before, but lockdown made dealing with it unbearable as she had no respite away from it in the way ‘normal life’ creates that.

In the nine years I’ve worked in this field, I would say things have objectively gone backwards and got worse. I have never had to manage expectations so much; about how long she’ll wait for a council house, about what kind of response the police will offer, about what will happen if contact arrangements go through the family court…. It feels quite bleak a lot of the time if I’m honest and I’ve never struggled so much with feeling like really, we do nothing. And it feels like nobody knows what’s going on, or worse doesn’t actually really care.

 

[purenarcotic]

It’s not that they gain respect from being connected to a man, just that the respect that is afforded another woman is afforded to them by making the connection. Women objectify men too, where I work the women used to have a hotness league table, possibly still do.

And it’s not just women that invent a partner when approached in a club. It’s gentler and cuts off any attempts at persuasion.

From some of the talk on here you’d think we were different species.

I would encourage you to reflect on the fact that you used the term ‘gentler’ and I used the term ‘safer’ and what thoughts might go through a woman’s head when she’s approached by someone she doesn’t want to be vs when a man is.

 

[8ball]

I would encourage you to reflect on the fact that you used the term ‘gentler’ and I used the term ‘safer’ and what thoughts might go through a woman’s head when she’s approached by someone she doesn’t want to be vs when a man is.

Yeah, I understand the difference in dynamic there.

 

[dessiato]

I just feel that once men stop seeing women as objects to be used, we can start to get them to see women in their own right. But until men start to recognise women this way there'll not be a full recognition of women as equals. This is, surely, the long term aim. But let's have a start point. Let's get men away from objectifying/comodifying women first, then move them to the intended goal.

 

[BigMoaner]

I just feel that once men stop seeing women as objects to be used, we can start to get them to see women in their own right. But until men start to recognise women this way there'll not be a full recognition of women as equals. This is, surely, the long term aim. But let's have a start point. Let's get men away from objectifying/comodifying women first, then move them to the intended goal.

is fancying someone across a crowded room objectifying? i would say it has an element of that.

the problem is that when teh person doing the objectifying has a complete abscence of respect for that person as a human being because the object of their desire is that and only that (and even more frightening is if the object of desire is also an object of contempt and hatred). plenty of men carry that view aroudn with them.

 

[purenarcotic]

is fancying someone across a crowded room objectifying? i would say it has an element of that.

the problem is that when teh person doing the objectifying has a complete abscence of respect for that person as a human being because the object of their desire is that and only that (and even more frightening is if the object of desire is also an object of contempt and hatred). plenty of men carry that view aroudn with them.

I think that’s an important point. It’s not that nobody should ever be able to approach someone in a club or pub or whatever, that’s how we meet people. It’s what happens next; that for all of the women I know, if they’re not interested back, they fear what will happen when they reject the advance. There’s countless times I’ve had to leave a venue because a friend is now uncomfortable, or I’ve drawn a woman I don’t know into my group because I can see she’s anxious, or I’ve seen women give their mates the look that says ‘help’ and they’ve jumped in. I’ve rejected advances and had a perfectly polite acceptance (though always because I’ve used the phrase ‘sorry, I’m taken’). Every time I’ve said ‘no thanks’ or ‘could you go away please’ I’ve been shouted at, called a bitch / cunt etc, and experienced some kind of aggression. That makes it very hard to not then believe that I’m going to get that every single time going forward. It’s quite depressing as I know lots of men are not like that. But the body keeps the score and all that, and if it happens that I’m out and I see unknown men approaching me / the table I’m sat at with others, the adrenaline instantly kicks in and I feel really horrible.

 

[Oula]

I'd like to point out that the guy who put his hand up my skirt and in my knickers in the club queue without my permission was probably somewhere in the middle of the scale of severity of unwanted touch, sexual assault and male violence that I've experienced. I can remember ten incidents right now but I'm sure there's more I've forgotten. Starting when I was 12 and the most recent incident being in October. And I go about feeling lucky that nothing worse has happened to me, feeling like I've largely managed to avoid male violence.

 

[Red Cat]

I’m just going on the research I read some time back. And yes, things that some people have dismissed as “sexual misconduct” was one of the things looked at. And things being hidden and unreported is why we have criminologists. I understand such interviewing needs to be done very carefully. I recall the number of offenses going into well into double figures fairly routinely.

As for certainty, I’m really not - I have no direct experience in the field. We probably have someone on here with relevant background..

If you look at violent offenses generally, a very small proportion of people tend to be responsible for a very large chunk of things. It doesn’t seem that strange in the scheme of things.

I'm not saying all men rape or that all men have the potential to. It is probably a minority but not a very small one. I think you're underestimating its prevalence, going by what I've read, what I've heard personally and in my job, and what I've experienced.

 

[weepiper]

If it's only a tiny minority of men that do it then how come every woman I've talked to about it has had an experience that they consider to have been rape?

 

[bluescreen]

If it's only a tiny minority of men that do it then how come every woman I've talked to about it has had an experience that they consider to have been rape?

I've heard it said that while it may be NAMALT (Not All Men Are Like That) it's certainly Nearly All Women who've encountered this allegedly tiny minority.

 

[8ball]

If it's only a tiny minority of men that do it then how come every woman I've talked to about it has had an experience that they consider to have been rape?

Already been explained, but as for overall incidence, your experience is your experience (and is shocking and saddening to me), but it doesn't tally at all with reported statistics including those collected by charitable and related bodies. All of which put the number shockingly high (as if any number wouldn't be far too high), but nothing like all or nearly all women. Something would seem to have gone shockingly wrong with the collection of data if the real figure was over 400% higher than generally reported.

I'll bow out if this is too cold and clinical an assessment given such a painful topic.

 

[izz]

I'd like to point out that the guy who put his hand up my skirt and in my knickers in the club queue without my permission was probably somewhere in the middle of the scale of severity of unwanted touch, sexual assault and male violence that I've experienced. I can remember ten incidents right now but I'm sure there's more I've forgotten. Starting when I was 12 and the most recent incident being in October. And I go about feeling lucky that nothing worse has happened to me, feeling like I've largely managed to avoid male violence.

And without wishing to play down the importance of this for you for one second Oula, this is many, if not most, women's lived reality. Which is why we're so fucking angry at it all.

I'm saddened by your experiences Oula and angry that you had to live through them.

 

[izz]

Already been explained, but as for overall incidence, your experience is your experience (and is shocking and saddening to me), but it doesn't tally at all with reported statistics including those collected by charitable and related bodies. All of which put the number shockingly high (as if any number wouldn't be far too high), but nothing like all or nearly all women. Something would seem to have gone shockingly wrong with the collection of data if the real figure was over 400% higher than generally reported.

I'll bow out if this is too cold and clinical an assessment given such a painful topic.

Perhaps, for various reasons, people who experience sexual assault don't always report them. Possibly that would be an explanation.

 

[Red Cat]

It’s not that they gain respect from being connected to a man, just that the respect that is afforded another woman is afforded to them by making the connection. Women objectify men too, where I work the women used to have a hotness league table, possibly still do, though that was when it was a startup with generally very young staff..

And it’s not just women that invent a partner when approached in a club. It’s gentler and cuts off any attempts at persuasion.

From some of the talk on here you’d think we were different species.

No, not a different species - I think we're a species that is violent and has the potential to be violent in certain circumstances like many others - but there is a difference in power, including physical strength, that makes a difference. Any group that has less power is de-humanised - the dehumanisation, or objectification, or only relating to a part of them is part of the process of creating and maintaining power, but it also provides a scapegoat for all our problems, social and personal.

And subjugation is exciting and pleasurable for some too.

I think its more complex than 'objectification'.

 

[Sue]

Something would seem to have gone shockingly wrong with the collection of data if the real figure was over 400% higher than generally reported.

Yes.

 

[8ball]

Perhaps, for various reasons, people who experience sexual assault don't always report them. Possibly that would be an explanation.

That's why they don't base the estimates on reports to the police.

 

[Sue]

That's why they don't base the estimates on reports to the police.

Reports to whom though?

 

[izz]

Yes.

Thank you, that was a far better response than mine I was so angry I couldn't think logically

 

[izz]

Reports to whom though?

Yes this, absolutely, of all the times I've been followed, groped, whatever, I've only reported it once as the response I got made me realise reporting further instances was pointless.

 

[Poot]

I don't think I'd report it. I mean, it never occurred to me in the past and my fear now is that if anything happens to my daughter, any trial is going to be more traumatic than the event itself and I'd want to protect her from that. Sadly, that's where we're up to. Good, isn't it.

To all my sisters who put themselves through a trial, my hat is off to you x

 

[8ball]

Reports to whom though?

It's a well known and well-studied fact that the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults are not reported to the police.

The more trusted figures are collated by a mixture of surveys from various bodies, most of which have no interest in downplaying matters and discussion of methodology is a generally ongoing thing (with the kinds of disagreements over inconsistency of definition etc. that you would expect). Happens at various levels with various kinds of sampling from fairly local to national level, then there are international statistics going right up to UN level. Which gets messy because definitions vary a lot by country but in the UK we have a pretty consistent definition.

I don't think anyone considers the systems perfect and there is a hodge podge of figures but the ones considered reputable don't tend to massively disagree with each other afaik and I'd consider the UK to collect better figures than, say, the UAE.

If Rape Crisis England & Wales were under-reporting by a massive factor people would be justified in taking to the streets.