Feminism and violence again women

[Pickman's model]

I don't understand the problem with what he's said. There's a feeling and a mental representation of that feeling, an emotion, which is cultural.

I think this is very relevant to the thread. I have two children who both struggle with anxiety, one can't recognise and identify feeling, so she can't talk about her emotions, its not available to her, so she feels physical sensations that can become unbearable, and she has aggressive meltdowns. The other is almost too able to identify her feelings and name them and she becomes overwhelmed by anxiety but in a different way because now as well as the physiological sensations of anxiety, there's also a mental representation, an idea, a 'thing' called anxiety to fear too.

So, in the context of the thread, this is an oversimplification, perhaps its not so much that there are bottled up emotions that explode because a man hasn't the opportunity to talk, but that someone might not have reached the level of recognising that there's anything to talk about because these ways of making sense of feeling aren't available to them, something that says more than aggghhhhhh and ugggghhhh.

For me, if your notion of culture precludes the term product of your culture having any meaning there's something wrong in it - in brief

 

[Red Cat]

I’m interested to see where this analogy with ruling class exploitation leads..

But just to reiterate, I don’t want anyone to stop talking about theory. I’m not trying to control the discussion in any way. I sensed that it wasn’t just me thinking we could get some mileage without going too far into it, but let it go however it goes. Sorry if there is something about my posting style making it look like I’m trying to shut anything down - that’s def not my intention. I’m just trying to contribute with my impressions.

No it wasn't just you, but you replied to me and so I'm replying to you. Most people ignore me on these kinds of threads, so I'm afraid you might get stuff directed your way that isn't specific to your posts

 

[8ball]

No it wasn't just you, but you replied to me and so I'm replying to you. Most people ignore me on these kinds of threads, so I'm afraid you might get stuff directed your way that isn't specific to your posts

I certainly wasn’t ignoring you. Are you sure other people do this, or do they read your posts and not feel they have a worthwhile response, or are just thinking about what you said?

 

[friendofdorothy]

Saying that, knowledge about it can be used to direct people through manipulating their subjective sense of who they are. However, people are quite good at noticing this manipulation and, when noticing it, they will react in unpredicted and counter-manipulative ways, so it’s a dangerous game to attempt. This government have demonstrated that amply. (The most successful ways of doing it are through institutions of power, like schools, hospitals and corporations. If you judge people against norms and punish them socially for failing to meet those norms, that tends to be pretty effective).

can you give examples?

 

[Red Cat]

I certainly wasn’t ignoring you. Are you sure other people do this, or do they read your posts and not feel they have a worthwhile response, or are just thinking about what you said?

I said the opposite of that, that I was replying to you because you responded to me. It was a flippant comment, but I can only go on what I can see.

 

[8ball]

I said the opposite of that, that I was replying to you because you responded to me. It was a flippant comment, but I can only go on what I can see.

Yeah, first sentence was a bit redundant.

 

[kabbes]

can you give examples?

You mean examples of what Foucault called “pastoral power” — the ability to get people to self-govern according to social norms?

Sure. It’s hard to avoid the examples. We follow the “rules” of society all the time — why is that? Why do you eat with your mouth closed and turn up for work at a particular time and not talk over people and wear particular clothes and wear different clothes at other times? Where did you get the idea to do these things from and what keeps you doing them?

 

[Pickman's model]

You mean examples of what Foucault called “pastoral power” — the ability to get people to self-govern according to social norms?

Sure. It’s hard to avoid the examples. We follow the “rules” of society all the time — why is that? Why do you eat with your mouth closed and turn up for work at a particular time and not talk over people and wear particular clothes and wear different clothes at other times? Where did you get the idea to do these things from and what keeps you doing them?

Yeh but that's culture, turning up at X time, in other countries people won't do that - in parts of Africa being prompt and punctual is known as keeping white man's time and in parts of Europe things are noticeably laxer with regard to time. You're not talking about 'rules' of society, you're talking about rules of a particular society, they're by no means universals.

And frankly I'd rather have less chat about culture on this thread now and see where the op and other people want to take this important topic. Maybe the word culture can be avoided and we talk about how we treat others or how ideas are shared and changed so we don't waffle about terms until the entire thread's a clusterfuck

 

[Pickman's model]

And further to my previous post I think a lot of men should note the title feminism and violence against women. I'd like to see terms used as women want them on this thread, rather than men impose their definitions and thus parameters to the debate

 

[smokedout]

One thing that might be of interest is that the drivers of different forms of male violence may well be different. In the UK (and elsewhere) there has been a large drop in violent crimes of all types, including domestic violence since the mid 90s but rates of sexual offending have remained flat. I'm not really sure what that means or tells us, but it may provide some hints towards a solution or at least suggests that it might be worth examining different types of male violence rather than assuming there is some catch all solution that will help address all of it.

The nature of violent crime in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

A summary of violent crime from the Crime Survey for England and Wales and police recorded crime.

www.ons.gov.uk

Sexual offences prevalence and trends, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

Prevalence, long-term trends and types of sexual offences experienced by adults, based on findings from the Crime Survey for England and Wales, and police recorded crime.

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[Red Cat]

This reminds me of a fractious conversation we had when I was talking about my team at work needing a new member and me musing about the gender balance on the team and you talking about vague root and branch reforms (certainly out of my power) that would be required. In the event we had to scrape around for applicants and found a young woman in China (in Shanghai right now, which we are a little concerned about as it happens - we’ve sent a care package), who has fitted in great. In the end, we were dealing with a specific situation and a very small sample size, so I’m not concluding too much.

I’m not sure the problems are as deep-rooted in culture per se. To make a bit of a leap to darker areas, I don’t think many young men are potential rapists, generally speaking. As far as I know most rapes are committed by a very small proportion of men.
I don’t know the figures for other assaults, but aside from the case of very toxic subcultures I’m not convinced the root of it is where most people seem to be looking. We could obv do better, but when it comes to rape and femicide I think there is a more specific pathology needing targeting.

I’m reminded of a case almost 20 years back when a friend suffered an attempted rape by a guy who we would in more recent parlance call the wokest guy on the block. No signs, never a dodgy comment, we were totally blindsided by this apparently really likeable guy. He had probably done similar before and possibly since, on reflection.

I also know some formerly boorish unreconstructed types who are completely devoted to their family and respectful of their female family members. The model of occasional comments leading to victim blaming leading to an escalating mysoginistic culture leading to violence of greater extremes doesn’t gel with my experience. I basically don’t think Loaded culture etc. has the simple relationship to male violence that is sometimes claimed, though that claim does make it look more easily solvable.

Maybe that’s something the theory area can address..

I don't agree that men who rape are in a small minority, I think most rape is opportunistic and impulsive, and all sorts of men rape, they frequently deny that what they are doing/ have done is rape.

There are studies into more extreme male violence, profiles of men who commit violence against women, it's not an unknown, there are patterns, or pathologies if you like. But whether these men share personality similarities with those men who's violence is less extreme, I don't know. Certainly, misogyny gives hatred a shape, that some men act upon with violence.

 

[friendofdorothy]

You mean examples of what Foucault called “pastoral power” — the ability to get people to self-govern according to social norms?

Sure. It’s hard to avoid the examples. We follow the “rules” of society all the time — why is that? Why do you eat with your mouth closed and turn up for work at a particular time and not talk over people and wear particular clothes and wear different clothes at other times? Where did you get the idea to do these things from and what keeps you doing them?

No - I meant examples that relate to male violence against women as that is the topic. Why do some men think its ok to turn up at work on time, and wearing the appropriate clothes - yet go home and beat their wife to a pulp? What are the social norms that lead to some men displaying toxic masculinity, while many do not?

Interesting you mention 'not talking over over people' - reminds me of the disscussion we had on the Feminism and the silencing of women discussion about how much men dominating meetings. How to men learn to behave like this?

You seem to be diverting the thread away from any talk about mens violence towards women. Talk about culture by all means but please stay on topic.

 

[BigMoaner]

One of the problems is gender stereotypes/expectations leading to unhealthy male behaviour. I think society as a whole would be improved if more fathers did more childcare, and I think we should do everything we can in structural terms to encourage them to do so.

The rancid toxic “manosphere” truly worries me. The bitter barely disguised resentment and hatred combined with the aspirations to roles of power and brute strength makes a heady toxic mix. have a friend (and maybe soon no longer a friend cos of it) who has disappeared into it.

 

[BigMoaner]

I know I prattle on about grifters a lot but the mysoginistic grift online is truly frightening. All instant gratification dopamine shit (women are to blame for all my problems) that is sucking in millions. Just another layer upon all the other layers of grimness

 

[friendofdorothy]

One thing that might be of interest is that the drivers of different forms of male violence may well be different. In the UK (and elsewhere) there has been a large drop in violent crimes of all types, including domestic violence since the mid 90s but rates of sexual offending have remained flat. I'm not really sure what that means or tells us, but it may provide some hints towards a solution or at least suggests that it might be worth examining different types of male violence rather than assuming there is some catch all solution that will help address all of it.

View attachment 318576View attachment 318577

The nature of violent crime in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

A summary of violent crime from the Crime Survey for England and Wales and police recorded crime.

www.ons.gov.uk

Sexual offences prevalence and trends, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

Prevalence, long-term trends and types of sexual offences experienced by adults, based on findings from the Crime Survey for England and Wales, and police recorded crime.

www.ons.gov.uk

I wonder how much those figures reflect reporting rates rather than prevalence of violence.
What explains the 90s spike in rape numbers? is that to do with the fact that marital rape was not a crime before then? or a change in policing policy?

The stats in the Counting Dead Women that I posted in the OP show depressing consistant numbers for many years.

 

[BigMoaner]

My friend after this divorce admitted that the only place he get comfort was by watching endless manosphete videos. Like some kind of sick sedation. Scary

 

[friendofdorothy]

Certainly, misogyny gives hatred a shape, that some men act upon with violence.

yes

 

[friendofdorothy]

manosphete

what does that mean? - I certainly don't want to search for it

 

[kabbes]

No - I meant examples that relate to male violence against women as that is the topic. Why do some men think its ok to turn up at work on time, and wearing the appropriate clothes - yet go home and beat their wife to a pulp? What are the social norms that lead to some men displaying toxic masculinity, while many do not?

I wish I had an answer for that but I don’t. I have lots of suspicions and half-formed theories but nothing I want to push onto others at this time. I’m on this thread to read perspectives on what those norms might be and how they have been formed, not to explain them.

 

[BigMoaner]

what does that mean? - I certainly don't want to search for it

Manosphere - it’s a an online ecosystem of mysoginistic men, mainly bitter about their lives or bitter because women are not having sex with them. It’s dressed up as self improvement but it’s creepy, built on hatred, and truly dangerous in my view

 

[friendofdorothy]

I want to ask why is mysogeny so embeded in our culture? (and please don't anyone give me a fucking lecture on the word culture!)

It is so ingrained that most people can't see it, its just so 'normal' that it is invisible.

How else can we explain violent threats on women who speak up in public on any subject, eg death threats for proposing the image of a woman on a bank note?

 

[friendofdorothy]

Manosphere - it’s a an online ecosystem of mysoginistic men, mainly bitter about their lives or bitter because women are not having sex with them. It’s dressed up as self improvement but it’s creepy, built on hatred, and truly dangerous in my view

has the internet allowed this to flourish? It seems to me that social media ramps up hate.

 

[BigMoaner]

has the internet allowed this to flourish? It seems to me that social media ramps up hate.

It’s monitised too, so the grifters have huge vested interests in keeping the rage and hatred going

 

[8ball]

I don't agree that men who rape are in a small minority, I think most rape is opportunistic and impulsive, and all sorts of men rape, they frequently deny that what they are doing/ have done is rape.

There are studies into more extreme male violence, profiles of men who commit violence against women, it's not an unknown, there are patterns, or pathologies if you like. But whether these men share personality similarities with those men who's violence is less extreme, I don't know. Certainly, misogyny gives hatred a shape, that some men act upon with violence.

Just taking the first point, from what I have read most men who have raped, on interview, whether convicted or otherwise, have been found to have committed multiple offences, and the numbers are pretty high, whereas it seems most men have never done so.
This surely needs to be taken into account if looking at solutions.
If anything, it seems pretty clear that “dont rape” type instruction is sorely inadequate. I don’t think there are many cases of men who just happen to be unaware of exactly what they are doing.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Just taking the first point, from what I have read most men who have raped, on interview, whether convicted or otherwise, have been found to have committed multiple offences, and the numbers are pretty high, whereas it seems most men have never done so.
This surely needs to be taken into account if looking at solutions.
If anything, it seems pretty clear that “dont rape” type instruction is sorely inadequate. I don’t think there are many cases of men who just happen to be unaware of exactly what they are doing.

Rape and the threat of rape is one way in which womens behaviour is controled or as kabbes said to 'self-govern according to social norms'

women posters in other threads have said how they avoid going out, keep quiet, behave themselves and 'man whisper' I think we were told we were making it up / exagerating / getting all wrong / thats it's not all men etc etc

 

[8ball]

Rape and the threat of rape is one way in which womens behaviour is controled or as kabbes said to 'self-govern according to social norms'

women posters in other threads have said how they avoid going out, keep quiet, behave themselves and 'man whisper' I think we were told we were making it up / exagerating / getting all wrong / thats it's not all men etc etc

The proportion of men committing the large number of rapes that happen has no bearing on the above. It could be most men offending once or twice, or a small minority offending a great deal and the result would be the same.

 

[Red Cat]

Just taking the first point, from what I have read most men who have raped, on interview, whether convicted or otherwise, have been found to have committed multiple offences, and the numbers are pretty high, whereas it seems most men have never done so.
This surely needs to be taken into account if looking at solutions.
If anything, it seems pretty clear that “dont rape” type instruction is sorely inadequate. I don’t think there are many cases of men who just happen to be unaware of exactly what they are doing.

Self-identifying rapists must be in a small minority, yes. What about those men that 'date rape' and don't see what they did as rape? Most rape is hidden and unreported, why are you so certain its a small minority?

 

[8ball]

Self-identifying rapists must be in a small minority, yes. What about those men that 'date rape' and don't see what they did as rape? Most rape is hidden and unreported, why are you so certain its a small minority?

I’m just going on the research I read some time back. And yes, things that some people have dismissed as “sexual misconduct” was one of the things looked at. And things being hidden and unreported is why we have criminologists. I understand such interviewing needs to be done very carefully. I recall the number of offenses going into well into double figures fairly routinely.

As for certainty, I’m really not - I have no direct experience in the field. We probably have someone on here with relevant background..

If you look at violent offenses generally, a very small proportion of people tend to be responsible for a very large chunk of things. It doesn’t seem that strange in the scheme of things.

 

[cesare]

friendofdorothy is the use of rape in war (thinking specifically Ukraine here in terms of what hits most home, next door) against civilians part of the reason for starting the thread? It's certainly something I've been thinking about a great deal in the past couple of weeks - rape and pillage part of war's destruction (war being the actions of the parties rather than a separate "other" term) reaching back centuries.

Rape is an expression of power and subjugation. It forms part of the power armoury of dominance - not just male on female violence but male on male and so on. The culture part is that we as societies accept it rather than the alternative.

 

[bluescreen]

The thing is we don't really know how many men commit rape. You certainly can't go by convictions, as less than half of cases that go to court result in convictions. You can't go by charges, as fewer than 6% of those reported result in charges. And you certainly can't go by reported figures, as most people don't ever report it. Rape Crisis says 5 out of 6 victims don't. That's a huge number of men getting away with it.

And you can't go by men's self-perception, since so many don't even recognise their behaviour as rape. But if you ask women, you'd find a shocking number of them have experienced it. But you'd have to conduct a truly anonymous survey to get any sort of picture, as it's not information that many people are going to volunteer even to close friends or partners. Rape Crisis reckons about 5 million in the UK. Add to that the fact that some of those 5 million women will have suffered many times at the hands of one man or more than one man.

And add to that all the 'lesser' offences on that sexual domination pyramid at the bottom of which lies an unexpressed and unacknowledged feeling of entitlement.

Rape, sexual assault and child sexual abuse statistics

Want to know how many people are raped, sexually abused or sexually assaulted? We have key statistics from trusted sources showing the scale of the problem.

rapecrisis.org.uk