Feminism and violence again women

[Sue]

It's a well known and well-studied fact that the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults are not reported to the police.

The more trusted figures are collated by a mixture of surveys from various bodies, most of which have no interest in downplaying matters and discussion of methodology is a generally ongoing thing (with the kinds of disagreements over inconsistency of definition etc. that you would expect). Happens at various levels with various kinds of sampling from fairly local to national level, then there are international statistics going right up to UN level. Which gets messy because definitions vary a lot by country but in the UK we have a pretty consistent definition.

I don't think anyone considers the systems perfect and there is a hodge podge of figures but the ones considered reputable don't tend to massively disagree with each other afaik and I'd consider the UK to collect better figures than, say, the UAE.

If Rape Crisis England & Wales were under-reporting by a massive factor people would be justified in taking to the streets.

Well most people I know who've been sexually assaulted/raped haven't reported it to anyone. So it's not about Rape Crisis (for example) under-reporting. It's about women not reporting it at all. (And I've never heard anyone mention being surveyed about it so no idea how widespread that is or whatever.)

I think we have no idea of the extent of it tbh. But personal experience tells me that most women have been sexually assaulted in some form at least once.

 

[bluescreen]

It's a well known and well-studied fact that the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults are not reported to the police.

The more trusted figures are collated by a mixture of surveys from various bodies, most of which have no interest in downplaying matters and discussion of methodology is a generally ongoing thing (with the kinds of disagreements over inconsistency of definition etc. that you would expect). Happens at various levels with various kinds of sampling from fairly local to national level, then there are international statistics going right up to UN level. Which gets messy because definitions vary a lot by country but in the UK we have a pretty consistent definition.

I don't think anyone considers the systems perfect and there is a hodge podge of figures but the ones considered reputable don't tend to massively disagree with each other afaik and I'd consider the UK to collect better figures than, say, the UAE.

If Rape Crisis England & Wales were under-reporting by a massive factor people would be justified in taking to the streets.

Oh it's only 5 million women, then - so not worth taking to the streets?
Honestly, I wish I hadn't brought the stats into it in an attempt to counter what seemed like minimisation. I know you're not really trying to minimise it, but it does come across as more of an intellectual debate than anything else.

Over on the "I just want to cross the fucking road" thread, Frank said (among other things)

I'm not seeking to diminish the behaviour of shit cyclists at all, I know how dangerous and upsetting they can be, but if we notice them more it's not because they're a greater threat but because the threat of cars is so universal and ever-present that we have to learn about it before we're even fully conscious beings.
(My bold)

and it struck me that this is how it is for girls and women viewing the threat from men. (Apologies for quoting you out of context, SpookyFrank)

Besides, we're not just talking about rape here. There's other sorts of violence too.

 

[izz]

Well most people I know who've been sexually assaulted/raped haven't reported it to anyone. So it's not about Rape Crisis (for example) under-reporting. It's about women not reporting it at all. (And I've never heard anyone mention being surveyed about it so no idea how widespread that is or whatever.)

I think we have no idea of the extent of it tbh. But personal experience tells me that most women have been sexually assaulted in some form at least once.

I can't possibly agree with your words enough Sue, most people I know who've been on the wrong end of sexual assault/harassment, often at work for instance, haven't reported it to anyone so I'm afraid I'm going to ignore any references to statistics, because they're of little practical value IMO.

 

[Edie]

A big part of the problem is the power dynamic when women become pregnant or are breastfeeding or caring for small children. We become physically vulnerable and often economically dependent on the man. The man is then in a significant position of power. Add on the extra stressors of lack of sleep, crying baby or clamouring toddlers, and sudden poverty and relationships become strained and women very vulnerable.

Whereas before a woman could leave, she probably had her own income, and could socialise when she chose and without needing to ask the man. Suddenly she doesn’t have much if any of ‘her own’ money, she’s tied to the house and with a baby who is attached to her and maybe feeding. Her options at that point are very limited- to leave would mean making her and her infant(s) intentionally homeless and with no money initially and she may well feel unable to cope practically or emotionally with the demands of the children on her own. I know I did.

Often staying is the best option, even if there is violence. Until we can address these inequalities- or offer real protection to vulnerable women because you cannot change the biological reality- the ‘system’ is ripe for abuse.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I know that when I used to commute into London daily on the train, I was groped many, many times but never even considered reporting it. It was just so common in those days. Is it still?

As for the discussion about men not recognising their behaviour as rape - I don't understand. If you force yourself on someone sexually, how could that not be rape?

 

[weepiper]

I know that when I used to commute into London daily on the train, I was groped many, many times but never even considered reporting it. It was just so common in those days. Is it still?

As for the discussion about men not recognising their behaviour as rape - I don't understand. If you force yourself on someone sexually, how could that not be rape?

I think some men have a different understanding of what force is. I know several women who have had experiences with partners where they have been persuaded into sex when they didn't want it. Perhaps the man in that situation comes away feeling she consented (eventually) so it's not a rape. But the woman feels she didn't really consent, only gave in to stop the pressure.

 

[bluescreen]

I know that when I used to commute into London daily on the train, I was groped many, many times but never even considered reporting it. It was just so common in those days. Is it still?

As for the discussion about men not recognising their behaviour as rape - I don't understand. If you force yourself on someone sexually, how could that not be rape?

It's the old thing of 'Why did you go to his hotel room if not...' and 'I bought her dinner' and 'She asked me in for coffee' and 'She was wearing skimpy clothing and definitely up for it' and 'She didn't say No' etc etc ad nauseam. It's only recently that Spain has changed the law to one of lack of consent, rather than requiring proof of physical violence or intimidation to secure a conviction.

Spain says non-consensual sex is rape, toughens sexual violence laws

The Spanish government approved a law on Tuesday to define all non-consensual sex as rape, part of a legislative overhaul that toughens penalties for sexual harassment and mandates more support systems for victims.

www.reuters.com

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I think some men have a different understanding of what force is. I know several women who have had experiences with partners where they have been persuaded into sex when they didn't want it. Perhaps the man in that situation comes away feeling she consented (eventually) so it's not a rape. But the woman feels she didn't really consent, only gave in to stop the pressure.

Yes, I see what you mean. But is that really rape? People give in to pressure on all sorts of things, but that doesn't equate to a violent criminal act.

 

[weepiper]

Yes, I see what you mean. But is that really rape? People give in to pressure on all sorts of things, but that doesn't equate to a violent criminal act.

Yes, it's rape.

(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

No mention of violence.

Sexual Offences Act 2003

An Act to make new provision about sexual offences, their prevention and the protection of children from harm from other sexual acts, and for connected purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[8ball]

If we have no idea of the extent of it, we have no idea of the extent of any crimes. People devote their lives to trying to figure this stuff out.

And the extent of it is really, really terrible.

If it was 1 in 10 over a lifetime it would still be so (it’s clearly much, much higher), but no one generally disputes that understanding the incidence, circumstances patterns of such offending is irrelevant to how best to tackle it, are they?

But we’re not doing well at tackling it regardless.

I know I’ve been talking about figures but I have my own (second hand) experiences too. Its not an internet intellectual exercise for me. I wanted to think about how things can be done better and I’m analytical by nature, but it comes over as minimising which is totally not what I wanted so I’ll leave it alone.

I just want to wish everyone well who has shared their experiences and I hope things work out well. And that the offenders get what’s coming to them, forlorn as that may be.

 

[Athos]

I like the thing the kids are being taught now about enthusiastic consent i.e. that pressuring/grinding someone down until they formally consent isn't 'real' consent.

 

[8ball]

I like the thing the kids are being taught now about enthusiastic consent i.e. that pressuring/grinding someone down until they formally consent isn't 'real' consent.

I had naively assumed consent had been taught generally in the UK for the last 30 years at least. Actually must be more than that...
I've mentioned before that we had classes in school. It seems like it might have been a pilot that didn't go anywhere.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I had naively assumed consent had been taught generally in the UK for the last 30 years at least. Actually must be more than that...
I've mentioned before that we had classes in school. It seems like it might have been a pilot that didn't go anywhere.

I don't remember it being mentioned at all when I was at school.

 

[kabbes]

The most we had at school was a picture of what looked like a cows head and another picture where we mislabelled the vas deferens

The kabbess had a naive middle class teacher tell them when the local clap clinic opened, who then had to be corrected by the kids she was teaching.

 

[Athos]

I had naively assumed consent had been taught generally in the UK for the last 30 years at least. Actually must be more than that...
I've mentioned before that we had classes in school. It seems like it might have been a pilot that didn't go anywhere.

I only recall it being mentioned in a very formal sense. Certainly, they're was an expectation at that time that if you could convince a girl to have sex with you (albeit reluctantly) then you were OK.

 

[8ball]

No one hear at all had the "no means no" song?

 

[Oula]

doesn't tally at all with reported statistics including those collected by charitable and related bodies. All of which put the number shockingly high (as if any number wouldn't be far too high), but nothing like all or nearly all women. Something would seem to have gone shockingly wrong with the collection of data if the real figure was over 400% higher than generally reported.

I've only reported one thing that happened to me and that was when I saw a photofit of him in the paper because he was wanted for raping a 14 year old girl. What he did to me was such low level that there wouldn't have been any point reporting it otherwise - I only reported it so that the police had an idea where to look for him. I never reported any of the other incidents. There would have been no point.

And without wishing to play down the importance of this for you for one second Oula, this is many, if not most, women's lived reality. Which is why we're so fucking angry at it all.

I'm saddened by your experiences Oula and angry that you had to live through them.

I know it's many women's lived reality. I imagine it's most women's lived reality. I know many women experience much worse, which is why I wanted to make it clear that I consider myself lucky to have only been assaulted ten times, mostly relatively mildly. How fucked up is that? Would a man who'd been attacked ten times count himself lucky at swerving violence?I'm angry that it such a common part of experience that I feel lucky to have not had worse.

Perhaps, for various reasons, people who experience sexual assault don't always report them. Possibly that would be an explanation.

Yes.

As for the discussion about men not recognising their behaviour as rape - I don't understand. If you force yourself on someone sexually, how could that not be rape?

I think there are a lot of things that the man might not see as rape that the woman would. And some the woman wouldn't see as rape at the time but might later. Incapacitated due to drink or drugs, emotional blackmail. How many women's first time follows the line "If you really loved me you'd do it?"
What about withdrawn consent? A woman gives her consent then changes her mind but the man feels entitled to continue with the sex act until he is satisfied. I didn't used to think that was rape but now I think that if a woman makes it clear that she wants a man to stop and he carries on regardless then that is rape. But I don't think everyone agrees.

I think some men have a different understanding of what force is. I know several women who have had experiences with partners where they have been persuaded into sex when they didn't want it. Perhaps the man in that situation comes away feeling she consented (eventually) so it's not a rape. But the woman feels she didn't really consent, only gave in to stop the pressure.

The idea that you have to persuade a woman, especially a good girl, is pretty firmly embedded in society. Like in the song "Summer Loving" in Grease where they ask Danny if Sandy "put up a fight."

I know two friends who had sex when on lots of drugs. The woman feels she was too wasted to consent and believes the man raped her. The man does not believe he raped her and is very offended to be accused of rape. The woman's subsequent boyfriend also did not believe it was rape.

 

[Sue]

Yes, I see what you mean. But is that really rape? People give in to pressure on all sorts of things, but that doesn't equate to a violent criminal act.

Yes.

When you were groped on public transport, was it 'violent'? Possibly, possibly not. Was it criminal? Yes. Was it really sexual assault? Yes.

When a friend woke up to a man having sex with her, was it violent? No. Was it criminal? Yes. Was it rape? Yes. Did he perceive it as rape ? No, because she'd consented the night before. Did she perceive it as rape? Yes. Did she report it to anyone. No.

 

[Edie]

Yes, I see what you mean. But is that really rape? People give in to pressure on all sorts of things, but that doesn't equate to a violent criminal act.

I like the thing the kids are being taught now about enthusiastic consent i.e. that pressuring/grinding someone down until they formally consent isn't 'real' consent.

Yeah. I mean I’m not sure it’s rape, but when a man goes on & on & on about sex, or makes sexual advances over hours, or repeatedly tries to have sex with you in bed, especially if they’re on stimulants and/or drunk, until eventually you think ‘oh ffs just get it over with so I can go to sleep’. I don’t think I’d call that rape but it’s fucking unpleasant and really bloody common.

That happened repeatedly in my marriage, with a good friend I’d been up all night taking Coke with, and when I was young enough to believe the line of ‘you can sleep on my bed/settee/tent/basher and I promise I won’t touch you’. It’s not (in my personal view- other womens opinions may vary and I respect that) rape but it is very definitely coercion and not enthusiastic consent and it’s not okay.

The times I feel I have been raped were once when I slept in a hippies bed in a squat in Vauxhall and he essentially forced himself on top of me in the middle of the night (urgh)- and his gf was pregnant at the time (double urgh hippie free love cunt). He was called Raven (but was probably actually Mike or whatever). Then the old ‘you’ve consented to one so you also consent to my mate/cousin/whoever’. Then unagreed bareback or anal. Those are/were all clearly rape. Other than that, I had one very very violent rape that anyone would consider rape, when I was working and very young. That was the only one I consider myself traumatised by (and I can still freeze and dissociate or freak out if I have sex without booze or benzos, but rarely nowadays). That guy was a bona fide predator who I was lucky to survive, the rest were just common or garden creeps. But they’re all not okay.

 

[David Clapson]

Is there any research into the infuence of film and TV? Murder of women is such a common plot ingredient. It's presented as forbidden fruit, something to fantasise about. Even critically acclaimed, popular films like 'Psycho' exploit the taboo of a man killing a woman. There are so many men shown murdering women that it becomes normalised, even validated. How can it not lead to more murders in real life?

 

[8ball]

Yeah. I mean I’m not sure it’s rape, but when a man goes on & on & on about sex, or makes sexual advances over hours, or repeatedly tries to have sex with you in bed, especially if they’re on stimulants and/or drunk, until eventually you think ‘oh ffs just get it over with so I can go to sleep’. I don’t think I’d call that rape but it’s fucking unpleasant and really bloody common.

That happened repeatedly in my marriage, with a good friend I’d been up all night taking Coke with, and when I was young enough to believe the line of ‘you can sleep on my bed/settee/tent/basher and I promise I won’t touch you’. It’s not (in my personal view- other womens opinions may vary and I respect that) rape but it is very definitely coercion and not enthusiastic consent and it’s not okay.

The times I feel I have been raped were once when I slept in a hippies bed in a squat in Vauxhall and he essentially forced himself on top of me in the middle of the night (urgh)- and his gf was pregnant at the time (double urgh hippie free love cunt). He was called Raven (but was probably actually Mike or whatever). Then the old ‘you’ve consented to one so you also consent to my mate/cousin/whoever’. Then unagreed bareback or anal. Those are/were all clearly rape. Other than that, I had one very very violent rape that anyone would consider rape, when I was working and very young. That was the only one I consider myself traumatised by (and I can still freeze and dissociate or freak out if I have sex without booze or benzos, but rarely nowadays). That guy was a bona fide predator who I was lucky to survive, the rest were just common or garden creeps. But they’re all not okay.

They're all way over the "not okay" line. Every one of them.

 

[kabbes]

Is there any research into the infuence of film and TV? Murder of women is such a common plot ingredient. It's presented as forbidden fruit, something to fantasise about. Even critically acclaimed, popular films like 'Psycho' exploit the taboo of a man killing a woman. There are so many men shown murdering women that it becomes normalised, even validated. How can it not lead to more murders in real life?

I’ve not read it yet, but this looks promising

Why shouldn’t she spit on his grave? Critical discourse analysis of the revenge narratives in American popular film from the developmental point of view - ProQuest

Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.

www.proquest.com

ETA: starting to read it, the introduction certainly contains very pertinent ideas for this thread, such as (p289 on the linked pdf):

Women’s nature is not at all, as we all used to think, more gentle than men’s. Their experience of anger is equally intensive, and its psychophysiological indicators are the same as in men. This suggests that if men and women do not differ in the way they experience anger, the difference in their tendency to act violently occurs rather at the level of permission they give themselves to express this emotion (Björkqvist & Niemelä, 1992; Campbell & Muncer, 1994).
The recent study by Wilkowski, Hartung, Crowe, and Chai (2012) points at yet another interesting factor: the need for revenge as the only relevant mediator of the gender differences in the expression of anger through physical violence. “Men don’t just get mad; they get even” - sums up ironically the title of the groundbreaking article. Revenge as the basic source of motivation for aggressive behavior is supposed to serve men as the means of reassuring and maintaining their position within their social circle whenever this position is threatened by some external or internal aggressors. Past research by Nisbett (Nisbett & Cohen, 1996) had already linked the physical violence to the need for revenge in his theory of the “culture of honor”, indicating that among societies which define masculinity through the traditional values such as honor, physical violence is far more frequent and acceptable than in it is among cultures which do not consider such values relevant whatsoever. Wilkowski’s team’s discovery seems to explain in a rather satisfying way the gender differences in physical aggression in the light of social learning theory.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Yeah. I mean I’m not sure it’s rape, but when a man goes on & on & on about sex, or makes sexual advances over hours, or repeatedly tries to have sex with you in bed, especially if they’re on stimulants and/or drunk, until eventually you think ‘oh ffs just get it over with so I can go to sleep’. I don’t think I’d call that rape
That happened repeatedly in my marriage, with a good friend I’d been up all night taking Coke with, and when I was young enough to believe the line of ‘you can sleep on my bed/settee/tent/basher and I promise I won’t touch you’. It’s not (in my personal view- other womens opinions may vary and I respect that) rape but it is very definitely coercion and not enthusiastic consent and it’s not okay.

Yes, I've been in similar situations. I've also been very drunk and been "taken advantage of" as it used to be called.

I don't consider myself to have been raped.

 

[Edie]

Yes, I've been in similar situations. I've also been very drunk and been "taken advantage of" as it used to be called.

I don't consider myself to have been raped.

But I understand if another woman would. And would absolutely defend her right to feel that.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

But I understand if another woman would. And would absolutely defend her right to feel that.

Yes. Same here.

 

[Athos]

Yeah. I mean I’m not sure it’s rape, but when a man goes on & on & on about sex, or makes sexual advances over hours, or repeatedly tries to have sex with you in bed, especially if they’re on stimulants and/or drunk, until eventually you think ‘oh ffs just get it over with so I can go to sleep’. I don’t think I’d call that rape but it’s fucking unpleasant and really bloody common.

Yeah, I don't think it'd work as a legal definition of rape (not that the existing system works, either), but it's not right. Hopefully, more boys are hearing this message.

Though I do worry that any such messages are massively outweighed by the availability of increasingly grim porn skewing young lads' understanding about what normal, healthy sex looks like.

That happened repeatedly in my marriage, with a good friend I’d been up all night taking Coke with, and when I was young enough to believe the line of ‘you can sleep on my bed/settee/tent/basher and I promise I won’t touch you’. It’s not (in my personal view- other womens opinions may vary and I respect that) rape but it is very definitely coercion and not enthusiastic consent and it’s not okay.

The times I feel I have been raped were once when I slept in a hippies bed in a squat in Vauxhall and he essentially forced himself on top of me in the middle of the night (urgh)- and his gf was pregnant at the time (double urgh hippie free love cunt). He was called Raven (but was probably actually Mike or whatever). Then the old ‘you’ve consented to one so you also consent to my mate/cousin/whoever’. Then unagreed bareback or anal. Those are/were all clearly rape. Other than that, I had one very very violent rape that anyone would consider rape, when I was working and very young. That was the only one I consider myself traumatised by (and I can still freeze and dissociate or freak out if I have sex without booze or benzos, but rarely nowadays). That guy was a bona fide predator who I was lucky to survive, the rest were just common or garden creeps. But they’re all not okay.

I'm sorry this happened to you. And for how common these things obviously are.

Just wish I had more of a clue about what I can do, as a man, to prevent it.

 

[Red Cat]

I’ve not read it yet, but this looks promising

Why shouldn’t she spit on his grave? Critical discourse analysis of the revenge narratives in American popular film from the developmental point of view - ProQuest

Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.

www.proquest.com

ETA: starting to read it, the introduction certainly contains very pertinent ideas for this thread, such as (p289 on the linked pdf):

Revenge, because they feel humiliated and shame, states of mind that are perhaps not caused by but are given shape and amplified by certain cultures of masculinity.

 

[Pickman's model]

Is there any research into the infuence of film and TV? Murder of women is such a common plot ingredient. It's presented as forbidden fruit, something to fantasise about. Even critically acclaimed, popular films like 'Psycho' exploit the taboo of a man killing a woman. There are so many men shown murdering women that it becomes normalised, even validated. How can it not lead to more murders in real life?

Tbh by now the killing of a woman by a man is such a staple of TV dramas its depiction has pretty much lost any taboo it once held. Psycho of course now a rather aged film: its place perhaps taken by series like the bridge. But yeh killings of women treated salaciously so frequently that it's almost at the point where it's rather a surprise where a man gets killed in the course of a drama (thinking here of the Saturday night crime shows on bbc4 in particular)

 

[smokedout]

I wonder how much those figures reflect reporting rates rather than prevalence of violence.
What explains the 90s spike in rape numbers? is that to do with the fact that marital rape was not a crime before then? or a change in policing policy?

The stats in the Counting Dead Women that I posted in the OP show depressing consistant numbers for many years.

The figures come from the Crime Survey of England and Wales (CSEW) so are not based on police reports but on a survey in which people are asked if they have been a victim of crime, regardless of whether they reported it or not. The general consensus seems to be the crime survey provides a better picture of what is actually going on rather than police figures which are vulnerable to under reporting or changes over time in how different crimes are reported. There has been a huge global drop in violent crime since the mid nineties although it has somewhat levelled out and now maybe back on the rise. This was mostly male on male violence but it did seem to have a small impact on male on female violence. It had very little impact on rates of sexual offending. No-one knows why, there have been lots of theories proposed but they all seem pretty dubious to me.

 

[A380]

Tbh by now the killing of a woman by a man is such a staple of TV dramas its depiction has pretty much lost any taboo it once held. Psycho of course now a rather aged film: its place perhaps taken by series like the bridge. But yeh killings of women treated salaciously so frequently that it's almost at the point where it's rather a surprise where a man gets killed in the course of a drama (thinking here of the Saturday night crime shows on bbc4 in particular)

One of the many reasons I rarely watch police dramas is they will at some point almost invariably have a plot line dealing with rape and/or sexually motivated murder and I can never stomach that as light entertainment.