Fascists, Fascism and the Invasion.

[zahir]

But I'm not sure that's right, I think that just as liberals and social democrats can get the far-left to do stuff for them and not give them anything in return, so you can get the state or mainstream forces working with fascists while managing to keep them on the lead sometimes - to the extent that Trumpism was a coalition of the Republican party and forces to its right, I think it was the Republicans rather than the alt-right who benefitted from it, and similarly in the relationship between Putin and Russian nazis it's clearly Putin who's the organ-grinder there.

Off topic but I think this argument also fits for the right in Greece.

 

[Southlondon]

Oh come on I wasnt having a go at him ffs.

Maybe because the people most enthusiastic about chucking around accusations of various Ukrainian figures being fash on the flimsiest of evidence are the ones who are actually carrying out nazi style actions on the ground? That's what I find nauseating about the whole thing

So what’s your opinion on the AZOV Battalion being integrated into the Ukrainian army and left to lead the fight in the Donbas where war has been raging for years?
It is possible to be critical but still support their right to defend against the Russians unconditionally. The Ukrainian government which presided over alarming human rights breeches and was not able to confront and deal with the uniformed fascists who made life hell for lgbt+ activists and human rights activists.

 

[Pickman's model]

So what’s your opinion on the AZOV Battalion being integrated into the Ukrainian army and left to lead the fight in the Donbas where war has been raging for years?
It is possible to be critical but still support their right to defend against the Russians unconditionally. The Ukrainian government which presided over alarming human rights breeches and was not able to confront and deal with the uniformed fascists who made life hell for lgbt+ activists and human rights activists.

Critical unconditional support

 

[frogwoman]

 

[The39thStep]

That was held in Portimao , Portugal at the weekend . Drives for a Swedish Team and has an Italian license.

 

[frogwoman]

Can confirm this, it's the old imperial flag, used by Russian fash

 

[Sue]

Am I being really think but how does it work for Russian far right/fash that they're going to 'de-Nazify' Ukraine?

 

[Cid]

Am I being really think but how does it work for Russian far right/fash that they're going to 'de-Nazify' Ukraine?

Different framing of Nazism rooted in ideas of the Great Patriotic war being one primarily against Russia and Russian identity. Very broadly.

 

[IC3D]

Wow. Opportunist or agent provocateur the whole time. Certainly. Now propoganda video maker showing well a stocked supermarket.

 

[frogwoman]

'Nazi' to Putin and co doesn't mean a real Nazi, it means someone who doesn't want to be part of Russia. That's how you can get someone banging on about denazifying Ukraine while heiling Hitler etc.

 

[hitmouse]

Different framing of Nazism rooted in ideas of the Great Patriotic war being one primarily against Russia and Russian identity. Very broadly.

Yeah, I suppose it's not 100 miles away from some of the contradictions around UK fash loving Churchill and the Cenotaph, etc. I remember someone posted a really good article in one of the many threads here about what "antifascism" is taken to mean in the post-soviet space, completely can't remember where it was though?

 

[frogwoman]

https://www.academia.edu/download/58603908/Irregular_Militias_and_Radical_Nationalism_in_Post_Euromaydan_Ukraine_2.pdf

Here's a very detailed 2019 article by Andreas Umland on the history of Azov, I haven't read the whole thing yet and im not a great expert on the subject tbh. So far its saying that the leadership of the Azov regiment are (or were) far right and that the 'Azov movement' they gave rise to has a worrisome influence in Ukrainian politics due to events on the battlefield, but also that the extent of extreme right ideology among its members, and those volunteering to join, can't be known, especially in the conditions of war etc.

 

[frogwoman]

Umland also has this article about contacts between the Russian and Ukrainian far right, again not read it all but there's some mad stories in there.

https://www.ssoar.info/ssoar/bitstream/handle/document/75396/ssoar-2021-umland_et_al-Unexpected_Friendships_Cooperation_of_Ukrainian.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y&lnkname=ssoar-2021-umland_et_al-Unexpected_Friendships_Cooperation_of_Ukrainian.pdf

And this article about the influence of far right ideas in Ukrainian politics and society

https://www.academia.edu/download/63544497/2020_Umland_Demokratizatsiya20200606-61348-7vdy1v.pdf

 

[zahir]

This article could be downplaying the Azov regiment's current far right links but it's interesting that Taras Bilous endorses it.

Too Much Ado About Ukrainian Nationalists: the Azov Movement and the War in Ukraine, by Ivan Gomza

Azov as a whole has returned to war. It looks like the incorporation of the organization into the National Guard and the Armed Force of Ukraine, a move initially not welcomed by all pundits, was a serendipitous idea by the state officials. They managed to coopt Azov and channel its militancy in...

krytyka.com

 

[frogwoman]

Umland is speaking at this webinar today if anyone is interested TÜHI Ukraine Talks: "Russia's Attack on Ukraine in Historical and Comparative Context"

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Yeah, I suppose it's not 100 miles away from some of the contradictions around UK fash loving Churchill and the Cenotaph, etc.

And yet Churchill had much in common with fascists and was pro-fascist prior to about 1938.

 

[The39thStep]

And yet Churchill had much in common with fascists and was pro-fascist prior to about 1938.

In 1965 members of Colin Jordan's National Socialist Movement planned to blow up Churchill's statue at Salway Hill at the edge of Epping Forest.

 

[Serge Forward]

How things change eh.

 

[Pickman's model]

In 1965 members of Colin Jordan's National Socialist Movement planned to blow up Churchill's statue at Salway Hill at the edge of Epping Forest.

Be a bit much to carry it to Connaught water or pond or whatnot

 

[The39thStep]

This article could be downplaying the Azov regiment's current far right links but it's interesting that Taras Bilous endorses it.

Too Much Ado About Ukrainian Nationalists: the Azov Movement and the War in Ukraine, by Ivan Gomza

Azov as a whole has returned to war. It looks like the incorporation of the organization into the National Guard and the Armed Force of Ukraine, a move initially not welcomed by all pundits, was a serendipitous idea by the state officials. They managed to coopt Azov and channel its militancy in...

krytyka.com

I can understand, and share the same position in that respect as Bilous, that the presence of the far right Azov ( both the armed regiment and its social movement) shouldn't be an excuse not to support Ukraine in its defence against the Russians. I can understand the argument that the far right in Ukraine has declined numerically and politically since the 2019 elections.

However, we seem to have moved in the space of 18 months from articles like this on Azov

Facebook condemned for hosting neo-Nazi network with UK links


to the article quoted above, "Azov activists launched initiatives as diverse as ensuring animal rights, fighting against illicit communal land seizure, and protecting the environment. In other words, they moderated their ideological fervor or modified it altogether." A turn funnily enough described by others, before the war commenced , as being based on Casa Pound , the Italian social fascist movement.

Can anyone explain how Azov has been denazified within 18 months?

 

[frogwoman]

Umland is speaking at this webinar today if anyone is interested TÜHI Ukraine Talks: "Russia's Attack on Ukraine in Historical and Comparative Context"

just started btw - no registration required

 

[frogwoman]

https://sputniknews. com/20220405/msms-bucha-tall-tale-1094504500.html&ved=2ahUKEwjln7T8h5L3AhXAQEEAHSVCAtwQFnoECAYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2_va19_IU3kvF-8W6Ddddl

Sputnik News has a new article up by a certain Nick Griffin on 'MSM's Bucha Tall Tale' (link broken)

 

[frogwoman]

It's real. Denazification going well.

 

[frogwoman]

There's also this bat-shit commentary by Christian fash channel Tsargrad. Comparing Ukraine to IS now lol, given that 'denazification' might not be going down 100% great with some of their audience.

 

[The39thStep]

There's also this bat-shit commentary by Christian fash channel Tsargrad. Comparing Ukraine to IS now lol, given that 'denazification' might not be going down 100% great with some of their audience.

View attachment 318562

View attachment 318561

The bad actress (apparently she had previously been in some Ukrainian soap) who wants to kill all Russians was the video that I posted (it's now been deleted) . I think it was taken down because the throat slitting bit in it drew comments about ISIS.

 

[rekil]

It's real. Denazification going well.

They're all at it. Richard Spencer's wife's twitter machine is full of pearl clutching about nazis despite her record of fashness. Galloway and assorted loons and redbrowns like to rt her of course.

Even Beeley has gone full anteefa.

 

[The39thStep]

The weird and wonderful world of Brazilian Nazis and Ukraine

Brazilian neo-Nazis see Ukraine as their model: Behind the fascist campaign to 'Ukrainize' Brazil - Geopolitical Economy Report

Brazilian neo-Nazis and supporters of Jair Bolsonaro collaborate with fascists in Ukraine, and launched a campaign to "Ukrainize" Brazil

multipolarista.com

 

[zahir]

Mint Press article though, so I'd wonder how much of it is true.

eta: does Mint Press qualify as Russian state media?

 

[The39thStep]

Mint Press article though, so I'd wonder how much of it is true.

eta: does Mint Press qualify as Russian state media?

Well these days all articles are read with a pinch of salt but which bits don't you think are true ?

 

[rekil]

That link is a two bob redbrown site with shitloads of pieces by loon Ben Norton. Mintpress is iranian I think. Worthless.