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Far-right response to Southport Outrage And Ongoing Violent Disorder

existentialist said:
Don't be so sure. From some of those videos from Stockport, you'd have to have extremely good aim to even FIND a brain amongst them.

Which is not in any way to underestimate the harm they can cause. But these are the "foot soldiers" - it's the enablers, eminences grises, and cheerleaders who are the root of the problem. I think it's time to stop cutting the likes of Yaxley-Lennon anywhere near as much slack as we seem to be doing at the moment.
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Southport not Stockport
 
existentialist said:
On the contrary, I think they are very thin-skinned. But in a way, that's not the point - you're ridiculing the position, not the person.
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Actually, you are right about Barton - he does not take criticism well, look at how he lashed out at Gabe Sutton.

Southport has dunes. Stockport has...concrete?
 
The Fox/Barton etc types are all about grievance aren't they. It's not that they ignore the criticism it's that it just feeds that sense of being hard done by. Which obviously isn't to say don't criticise them but doing it with any expectation they might listen and take it on board would be a waste of time.
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
The Fox/Barton etc types are all about grievance aren't they. It's not that they ignore the criticism it's that it just feeds that sense of being hard done by. Which obviously isn't to say don't criticise them but doing it with any expectation they might listen and take it on board would be a waste of time.
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It's a bit like on here, though. You don't necessarily counter someone's point in the expectation that they will change their mind. It's done mainly for the benefit of anyone else who might be reading.
 
Lotte said:
It's why I get fed up with people saying 'oh, just ignore Joey Barton/Laurence Fox/whoever'. It's easy to say that but the fact is, these men are doing a lot of damage because they're riling people up and encouraging them to attack people they consider as 'lesser' or the enemy. Barton's rallying call to 'strap your dicks on' and fight back against the woke, feminists etc. They're just as dangerous as the grunts on the street.
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Fox and Barton are a pair of clowns. The fact that they have a platform on social media is because they are reflecting back (not very well or clearly from what I have seen) a set of existing ideas not because they are creating them.

The conditions that provide the oxygen for those ideas - a political vacuum and lack of representation, deteriorating living standards, concerns about immigration, the collapse of social solidarity, a crisis of masculinity etc – have not emerged overnight and are very complex to resolve. The far right and the political reproduction of some of their ideas by the populist right provide an easy, but ultimately hollow, solution.

For those seeking to engage and to build a better set of ideas and politics, who see the need to intervene meaningfully and credibly in the communities where these ideas are taking root and who want our side and not their side to fill the political vacuum the task is to provide ideas and answers to those conditions. There are no short cuts or easy solutions. Social media bans (which won't happen), calling on the state to hand out stiffer jail terms, demonisation etc isn't going to cut it.

I agree with Pickman's model that where we are headed does require the need for thinking about effective tactics to target mobilisations like last night, but AFA was also always clear that its role was essentially defensive, and to create time and space for an alternative set of pro working class politics to fill the vacuum. That was the task then and it remains the task now....
 
There are just a lot of scumbags who like violence IMO. Whether its rival football teams or muslims, thick twats like to to herd together like animals and fight at any opportunity. The fact this happened smack bang in the middle of a grieving community demonstrates perfectly the kind of low lives that exist in this country.
 
It's the lack of consideration for the families that really gets me. Even if you are angry at the government, why target a community who are grieving? One of the girls who was killed was a second-generation immigrant. Did she deserve to die too?

I'd also question the usefulness of social media bans because not only does it feed the 'being silenced' narrative, it also drives these people underground.
 
Neighbours spoke of their shock, describing the parents - a Christian “hard-working father and stay-at-home mother” - as “very normal”.


sounds like they should have been attacking the local church instead.
 
Yes! Nice bar near the station as well, I forget what it's called but I saw a Tommy Scott solo gig there.
 
Lotte said:
It's the lack of consideration for the families that really gets me. Even if you are angry at the government, why target a community who are grieving? One of the girls who was killed was a second-generation immigrant. Did she deserve to die too?
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Because NOTHING matters beyond it being grist for the mill that is their racist agenda. Certainly not truth, or compassion. I've met a few of these people (not during riots), and they don't even have the emotional intelligence of most small children.

Lotte said:
I'd also question the usefulness of social media bans because not only does it feed the 'being silenced' narrative, it also drives these people underground.
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Broadly, I'd agree. But I would like to see more accountability for racism/sexism, and see these people called out for their views. Of course, they'll regard that as oppression ("to the entitled, equality looks like oppression"), but they won't be being silenced - just held to account for their remarks.

And we should start with Yaxley-Lennon - I think the book should be thrown at him for his repeated, wilful, and blatant breaches of the court order.
 
Lotte said:
No, but you can't deny there is an overlap between the far right and antivaxx conspiracy theorists. I mean, look at the Laurence Fox thread. Yes, plenty of POC are antivaxx, there's a lot of distrust in the US towards the medical community by black people because of its history of anti-black racism. It still doesn't change the fact that there is an overlap.

And on a personal note, if you're antivaxx yourself, why do you want to stop people from having vaccinations? Why does your bodily autonomy matter, but not mine? I was in a clinical trial for a jab and I chose to sign up, nobody pointed a gun to my head. Why the fuck would I go to an antivaxx demo anyway? I don't want to be anywhere near that lot, especially given how many conspiracy theorists blame Jews for COVID. We're not THAT powerful.
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I'm not denying there's an overlap but I am not as confident as you that on a Venn diagram the circles 'fash' and 'av' overlap to the extent you suggest.
 
Pickman's model said:
I'm not denying there's an overlap but I am not as confident as you that on a Venn diagram the circles 'fash' and 'av' overlap to the extent you suggest.
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Yes, I don't think "fash" as an ideology necessarily overlaps. But there is definitely something about those prepared to believe in conspiracies (including around vaccinations, AND stuff around racism) that creates some kind of overlap.

I might have to eat these words, but I don't think the majority of those thugs at Southport would necessarily subscribe to a complete political ideology - they're just being told what they want to hear, and looking for excuses to smash things up.

The true fash are the ones like Farage and Yaxley-Lennon, who are cynically and deliberately winding up their suggestible and violent footsoldiers.
 
existentialist said:
Because NOTHING matters beyond it being grist for the mill that is their racist agenda. Certainly not truth, or compassion. I've met a few of these people (not during riots), and they don't even have the emotional intelligence of most small children.


Broadly, I'd agree. But I would like to see more accountability for racism/sexism, and see these people called out for their views. Of course, they'll regard that as oppression ("to the entitled, equality looks like oppression"), but they won't be being silenced - just held to account for their remarks.

And we should start with Yaxley-Lennon - I think the book should be thrown at him for his repeated, wilful, and blatant breaches of the court order.
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The thing is ysl has charisma and a degree of plausibility many people find attractive while he is also chaotic and has not the ability of a tyndall, a bean or a griffin. I'd say syl appeals to a certain group of the population but is useful to other people with greater vision and of more 'intelligence' who see him as furthering their agenda. Farage, for example, benefits from him and his activities. Prior to the splintering of the bnp syl was a small fish in a big pond. At some point a man with greater political skills will emerge to provide the fascist street movement with greater leadership than syl - but they'll benefit from syl's john the baptist to their christ. Syl's great role will have been in the transition from an electorally oriented bnp to a street movement, while a successor may manage to bridge the divide between street and electoral politics. Farage won't manage that. He has positioned himself to stand above the fray.
 
two sheds said:
The only one I really recall was the protests against veal exports years ago, but I think that was because there were images on the news of loads of grannies and granddads protesting.
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If you extend the scope to worldwide, there are plenty of examples through history. Often the rioters themselves were harshly treated but their essential demands were addressed nonetheless.

Clearly, this is not that. This is an unfocused expression of racist hatred, stoked up by the usual suspects. But my point from the other thread still stands. If you support extreme, punitive sentencing for these rioters, you are also assenting to the idea that the state should exact disproportionate vengeance upon anyone who threatens order, and those who are threatening order may not be so clearly hateful next time around.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Fox and Barton are a pair of clowns. The fact that they have a platform on social media is because they are reflecting back (not very well or clearly from what I have seen) a set of existing ideas not because they are creating them.

The conditions that provide the oxygen for those ideas - a political vacuum and lack of representation, deteriorating living standards, concerns about immigration, the collapse of social solidarity, a crisis of masculinity etc – have not emerged overnight and are very complex to resolve. The far right and the political reproduction of some of their ideas by the populist right provide an easy, but ultimately hollow, solution.

For those seeking to engage and to build a better set of ideas and politics, who see the need to intervene meaningfully and credibly in the communities where these ideas are taking root and who want our side and not their side to fill the political vacuum the task is to provide ideas and answers to those conditions. There are no short cuts or easy solutions. Social media bans (which won't happen), calling on the state to hand out stiffer jail terms, demonisation etc isn't going to cut it.

I agree with Pickman's model that where we are headed does require the need for thinking about effective tactics to target mobilisations like last night, but AFA was also always clear that its role was essentially defensive, and to create time and space for an alternative set of pro working class politics to fill the vacuum. That was the task then and it remains the task now....
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Agree with this 100%

The social problems you mention in the second paragraph are only going to get worse in the short-medium term and we are in uncharted territory with our algorithmically-driven lack of empathy, poor socialisation and alienation (I suspect this will be a significant part of the reasons behind why this atrocity took place to begin with).

Long term investment from all tiers of government along with collective community work and addressing of needs neighbourhood by neighbourhood will take decades, all the while government of whatever colour is cutting back spending to the bone and adopts a devil take the hindmost approach, other than for spectacular atrocities such as this.

Southport isn't a bad case in point. I have a lot of affection for the place and have spent quite a bit of time there on holiday, at the Atkinson gallery, at the football. It used to have a slightly wealthy air to it (Liverpool / Everton footballers lived there in numbers in the 80s & 90s) but I have noticed the last 2-3 times I've been there that it has become really run down and decayed, and people look generally much less healthy and happy than they did. Grass is growing out of roofs of many venerable old buildings, and the place has an air of shabby, flaking-paint decline that it probably hasn't had since the Southports and Morecambes became a bit beleagured when package holidays abroad took off. Of course socio-economic decline cannot account for the horrific actions of this teenage sociopath, whoever he is, but it is a general background noise that's been getting louder for quite a while. I'm not sure how much further local government can be defunded and stripped of its powers by the centre before whole towns and cities fail.

We're in for an ugly few years unfortunately, on top of an ugly fifteen years past, and certainly we are long past the time where a populist / fascist right needs to be physically confronted and smashed. Easy solutions to be regarded as the snake oil that they are.
 
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A lot of seaside towns in general are pretty dilapidated. Blackpool has a booming tourist industry in summer (I normally go there for Rebellion every year and the beaches are always packed), but is also notorious for having a high mental illness rate, and Cleethorpes apparently is one of the least safe places in the country for women. And then there's Jaywick, and it's an absolute fucking disgrace how people there are forced to live in houses that aren't fit for human habitation. Of course, Farage won't actually do anything to help the people who voted for him because he's too busy licking Trump's hole, which is another reason to hate him, because however you feel about people who voted him in, he should at least make the effort to serve his constituents.
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
The Fox/Barton etc types are all about grievance aren't they. It's not that they ignore the criticism it's that it just feeds that sense of being hard done by. Which obviously isn't to say don't criticise them but doing it with any expectation they might listen and take it on board would be a waste of time.
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Fox doesn't just feel hard done by - he's paid a lot of money to keep amplifying bullshit by his extremely rich benefactor, Jeremy Hosking.
 
Lotte said:
A lot of seaside towns in general are pretty dilapidated. Blackpool has a booming tourist industry in summer (I normally go there for Rebellion every year and the beaches are always packed), but is also notorious for having a high mental illness rate, and Cleethorpes apparently is one of the least safe places in the country for women. And then there's Jaywick, and it's an absolute fucking disgrace how people there are forced to live in houses that aren't fit for human habitation. Of course, Farage won't actually do anything to help the people who voted for him because he's too busy licking Trump's hole, which is another reason to hate him, because however you feel about people who voted him in, he should at least make the effort to serve his constituents.
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Could you give your source for cleethorpes pls?
 
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