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Far-right response to Southport Outrage And Ongoing Violent Disorder

My bad, I thought Elizabeth meant Twitter. Instagram, I mainly post photos of food/gigs/my cat/matches I've been to.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
The people rioting are maybe 2,000-odd in total across the country, if that? They are white supremacist fash. They are total scum, and I don't care what hardships they may or may not have faced in their lives. Not interested.

They do not represent or reflect wider issues in society, not really, except perhaps in the fact that they clearly feel emboldened right now to take to the streets. They don't represent legitimate grievances or anger. That's not to say that legitimate grievances and anger don't exist, merely that these people don't represent it. They are antisocial scumbags against whom the rest of us should be able to unite regardless of our own particular grievances.

I think a bit of clarity on this point is needed.
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i think a bit of clarity on this point is needed and your post doesn't provide it. we all, i suspect, despise these people and what they stand for. but it is precisely because we despise them and their politics that we should care to understand them. if we are serious about opposing them then it is incumbent on us to understand them and to learn about them precisely because you can't defeat what you don't understand. one thing the far right have proved themselves adept in - more so, i think, than the left - is their use of the internet and social media as mobilising tools. sure, there are other elements at work, the russian state for example. but you don't advance matters by the majorite injunction to condemn a little more and understand a little less.
 
Lotte said:
And using the deaths of three children as an excuse. Look, I know I should feel compassion for them, I know they're angry disaffected working-class men who feel that nobody is listening to them and the country's been let down, but it's...hard to feel sympathy when all I can think of is that those three little girls will never grow up, their families have violence from outsiders to deal with on top of all of this, and the people rioting have fuck all to do with the area or the victims.
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A fair few looked around my age. I'm sympathetic to a certain extent, in how the sort of conditions I grew up in myself can 'create' such people, but intending harm, potentially even death, to other working class people crosses a line. Those more ideologically motivated, rather than getting attracted to a spectacle of violence after some cans of cider, knew it wasn't about the victims of the stabbing. They're angry sure, but they've chosen the answers to their own problems. They've chosen to channel real grievances into racist scapegoating and find emotional comfort there. They've chosen to enact violence on ordinary people. They want and wish for the death of people who aren't like them and have built an identity around it. Even if they got what they wanted their own lives would still be shit.
 
Artaxerxes said:
They can be seen as the tip of the boil that makes up Reform/UKIP - behind the thugs are many more who are “just saying I remember when England was for the English and we had law and order round these parts and good jobs before all themuns arrived”
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Yes, it's the right's old correlation as causation fallacy again, and it's easy to comprehend and therefore persuasive. They played it with Brexit; things were actually better for our class before the UK joined the supra state and before immigration changed the demographics for much of the country. But the right posit those true correlations as causation and rely on inter-generational confirmation to stoke contemporary grievances amongst those young enough to take to the streets.
 
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Pickman's model said:
i think a bit of clarity on this point is needed and your post doesn't provide it. we all, i suspect, despise these people and what they stand for. but it is precisely because we despise them and their politics that we should care to understand them. if we are serious about opposing them then it is incumbent on us to understand them and to learn about them precisely because you can't defeat what you don't understand. one thing the far right have proved themselves adept in - more so, i think, than the left - is their use of the internet and social media as mobilising tools. sure, there are other elements at work, the russian state for example. but you don't advance matters by the majorite injunction to condemn a little more and understand a little less.
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We also have to be careful not to fall into the only-a-few-thousand-trap.
Even if this is more or less correct, those few thousand have the power to not only terrify communities, but also shape politics by legitimising 'moderate' right wing ideas.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
The people rioting are maybe 2,000-odd in total across the country, if that? They are white supremacist fash. They are total scum, and I don't care what hardships they may or may not have faced in their lives. Not interested.

They do not represent or reflect wider issues in society, not really, except perhaps in the fact that they clearly feel emboldened right now to take to the streets. They don't represent legitimate grievances or anger. That's not to say that legitimate grievances and anger don't exist, merely that these people don't represent it. They are antisocial scumbags against whom the rest of us should be able to unite regardless of our own particular grievances.

I think a bit of clarity on this point is needed.
Click to expand...
Yes to that when it comes to those who identify as edl or similar, who are involved. But there are lots of people on sliding scales of resentment and alienation, just fucked off at their lives who are ready to roll when it comes to this kind of flashpoint. And when it kicks off, yes, masculinity, social media and the rest, but it's the longer term causes of that alienation. Not just the shit people have faced over decades of deindustrialisation, there's also the sense that politics has moved away from real life and communities and has become a distant managerial thing with no connections. An edl/farage shaped hole emerged in contemporary life and politics and it has become a moment of populism, fash or whatever term you prefer. But the wider conditions have affected a lot more people than just the ideological followers.

A random point: interesting that the rioters are chanting 'enough is enough'. No connection of course, but that was the failed left campaign that threatened to link union action with community campaigning. A coincidence of wording, but also a reminder of 'our' failures to respond to all the shit the far right are now exploiting.
 
ElizabethofYork said:
I've stopped trying to discuss anything with anyone on social media. It's too depressing and the level of 'debate' is too ignorant. In the days before SM, I hadn't realised quite how nasty and thick many people are. That sounds very judgmental, but it's hard to come to any other conclusion.
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I don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence for this, but I think an awful lot of us have stopped using social media for debate and discussion after realising just how toxic it can become and how that can affect your mental health. I read Twitter a lot, but never post any more. Dip in and out of Facebook, but have a cast iron rule never to post or get into an argument. All came to a head during the pandemic for me - I had to just let it all go and stop engaging. I think that withdrawal by a lot of people has had the effect of making the loud angry toxic voices seem more visible and dominate the platforms. I think effectively a lot of us on the left have ceded that territory. I'm not sure I think re-engaging is the best move, but I think it's definitely important to recognise that those who post are really not representative and the fact there's more racism on social media doesn't necessarily mean it's become more prevalent in general.
 
lazythursday said:
I don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence for this, but I think an awful lot of us have stopped using social media for debate and discussion after realising just how toxic it can become and how that can affect your mental health. I read Twitter a lot, but never post any more. Dip in and out of Facebook, but have a cast iron rule never to post or get into an argument. All came to a head during the pandemic for me - I had to just let it all go and stop engaging. I think that withdrawal by a lot of people has had the effect of making the loud angry toxic voices seem more visible and dominate the platforms. I think effectively a lot of us on the left have ceded that territory. I'm not sure I think re-engaging is the best move, but I think it's definitely important to recognise that those who post are really not representative and the fact there's more racism on social media doesn't necessarily mean it's become more prevalent in general.
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I think thats some very wishful thinking
 
lengualo said:
I think thats some very wishful thinking
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Statistical surveys about people's attitudes towards race and immigration don't show that racism is surging. Loud voices on social media are not a good picture of attitudes within the wider population. That doesn't mean I'm not mega concerned about the growth in influence of the far right / people voting for Reform etc but I think it's easy to jump to conclusions about this.
 
Wilf said:
Starts the day bouncing around attacking the police, then it's a triple bricking (clavicle, cranium and conkers), bit of domestic abuse, arrested, then racially abusing a fellow patient. To be fair, he had quite a full day.
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Seems like a nice chap
 
lazythursday said:
I don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence for this, but I think an awful lot of us have stopped using social media for debate and discussion after realising just how toxic it can become and how that can affect your mental health. I read Twitter a lot, but never post any more. Dip in and out of Facebook, but have a cast iron rule never to post or get into an argument. All came to a head during the pandemic for me - I had to just let it all go and stop engaging. I think that withdrawal by a lot of people has had the effect of making the loud angry toxic voices seem more visible and dominate the platforms. I think effectively a lot of us on the left have ceded that territory. I'm not sure I think re-engaging is the best move, but I think it's definitely important to recognise that those who post are really not representative and the fact there's more racism on social media doesn't necessarily mean it's become more prevalent in general.
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it's by design. social media rewards engagement. the algorithm favours divisive posts that cause reactions, comments and shares.
 
Gvt emergancy meeting today, looks like the first law and order test for Starmer and co. Hopefully means they will go at it pretty hard. Or not.
 
lazythursday said:
I don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence for this, but I think an awful lot of us have stopped using social media for debate and discussion after realising just how toxic it can become and how that can affect your mental health. I read Twitter a lot, but never post any more. Dip in and out of Facebook, but have a cast iron rule never to post or get into an argument. All came to a head during the pandemic for me - I had to just let it all go and stop engaging. I think that withdrawal by a lot of people has had the effect of making the loud angry toxic voices seem more visible and dominate the platforms. I think effectively a lot of us on the left have ceded that territory. I'm not sure I think re-engaging is the best move, but I think it's definitely important to recognise that those who post are really not representative and the fact there's more racism on social media doesn't necessarily mean it's become more prevalent in general.
Click to expand...

I think I read somewhere that 80% of the population have never used Twitter.

But, your general point is correct. There is zero point as far as I can see in engaging on twitter. I can barely be bothered to even scroll through the debris and sewerage of my feed these days. once you've got past the porn bots, bitcoin, spam and 'sponsored' content the political content is even worse....
 
Pickman's model said:
i rather doubt that this shammerite initiative will be used against the far right Far-right riots: Starmer to announce setting up of new violent disorder unit. some years down the line we'll be hearing of fuckwittery from the unit in front of a latterday mitting inquiry
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and another thing, this smacks of the national reporting centre established by the police during the miners' strike. i don't know why or how it is hoped to make the cops' mutual aid more efficient than the present system. one thing it makes clear is that if there something kicks off in eg southport, toxteth, or wherever that the best way to assist people under police attack is to kick off elsewhere. for this is really unlikely to be used often or indeed more than rarely against fascists or their dupes and much more likely to be used against people driven to kick off by police aggression
 
ElizabethofYork said:
I've stopped trying to discuss anything with anyone on social media. It's too depressing and the level of 'debate' is too ignorant. In the days before SM, I hadn't realised quite how nasty and thick many people are. That sounds very judgmental, but it's hard to come to any other conclusion.
Click to expand...
I think social media has more nastiness than real life and it isn't just the anonymity - political discussions are absolutely hijacked by bad faith actors including members of political parties or other coordinated activist groups, intelligence agencies, and PR firms hired by private companies or individuals. A lot of the time you aren't communicating with someone willing to give and take and learn something from discussion.

The situation is getting worse because of generative AI where you could plausibly be wasting time arguing with a large language model.
 
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