Far-right response to Southport Outrage And Ongoing Violent Disorder

[Jeff Robinson]

That's a really good post.

I feel like it's a dual life. There is the real world - work, family, mates, football, pub, getting the bus - where people do have different views but we can talk about them and we find some common ground. Then there is also the world of social media which, and this might be my age, I find atomising, anomic, fucked up and where political (but also wider social, cultural and economic issues) discussions are utterly toxic. Difference is emphasised and weaponised everywhere by everyone. The saturation by competing identity groups and the way the algorithms feed back to you your views only is genuinely disturbing.

While I think (hope) most people can tell the difference, the concern is a) how many people increasingly or even exclusively inhabit the latter and are cut off from the other world and b) the retreat of political engagement and activity out of the real world and into the social media hellscape.

It's not your age, I think most people think this also.

 

[Lotte]

Yeah, some guys are just "fighters".. not a new thing and not necessarily from troubled backgrounds or deprived areas. I've known the occasional one, but it's not really the company I'd choose to keep. People (guys) want to fit into a tribe, want to assert dominance, are pumped after booze and maybe some coke, perhaps there is peer pressure or some sort of media influence or hormones... Do rival football fans still knock lumps out of each other? (You don't hear about it so much these days.) Perhaps this sort of shit has replaced football violence?

They do. There's a reason why I'm not going the Steel City Derbies this season. It's not as bad as the '70s, which I wasn't around for but older relatives were, but I worry it'll become that way.

 

[pbsmooth]

The people rioting are maybe 2,000-odd in total across the country, if that? They are white supremacist fash. They are total scum, and I don't care what hardships they may or may not have faced in their lives. Not interested.

They do not represent or reflect wider issues in society, not really, except perhaps in the fact that they clearly feel emboldened right now to take to the streets. They don't represent legitimate grievances or anger. That's not to say that legitimate grievances and anger don't exist, merely that these people don't represent it. They are antisocial scumbags against whom the rest of us should be able to unite regardless of our own particular grievances.

I think a bit of clarity on this point is needed.

I agree it's important - and helpful - to remember how few people are doing this. and I agree with the wider point. but if you cut to the chase on what these clowns would say it's about - too many muslims/brown/foreigners in my country - I fear there is a much larger number who would agree on some level. and some of that is why so many people across the country voted for a party led by Farage and full of people saying outright racist things.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The people rioting are maybe 2,000-odd in total across the country, if that? They are white supremacist fash.

Paid up far rightists who want a ruck have always existed. The broader concerns are a) how big and how motivated is the layer of those who are not but are listening to them b) how big and how motivated is another even larger group who could be tempted onto the streets just for the 'fun' of it and c) the extent to which these groups could then be drawn further into the orbit of the far right.

They are total scum, and I don't care what hardships they may or may not have faced in their lives. Not interested.

That might be the case with their activists (although even then writng all of them off totally forever seems counter productive) but if the perception among the softer and much larger layer around them is that they are also seen as scum and nobody is interested in their lives and struggles then they will be driven further into the arms of the far right. France serves as a lesson of where that can lead.

They do not represent or reflect wider issues in society, not really, except perhaps in the fact that they clearly feel emboldened right now to take to the streets. They don't represent legitimate grievances or anger. That's not to say that legitimate grievances and anger don't exist, merely that these people don't represent it. They are antisocial scumbags against whom the rest of us should be able to unite regardless of our own particular grievances.

I don't think anyone here disagees. The debate necessary is how do others comes to understand those facts.

 

[lengualo]

I think it's more important to experience And feel comfortable in one's own culture, and to accept and appreciate its cultural diversity and history for all it has to offer, and to come to terms with and accept history, wherever one is.

Obviously we all have our own experiences. To highlight where Im coming from, my SO is from a country that is famous for being "troubled" and "violent".

There are many racist tropes, often based on "facts" that we hear regularly. Reality is that the "facts" that inform the tropes are, if not outright false, at the very least skewed and come with many caveats that can be very difficult to unpack without experience of that culture. Or more paragraphs of text than anyone would care to read.

I'm not saying that social issues here should not be tackled, but there is an underlying racism in our country that extends beyond the far right, and which the far right then capitalises on. That racism specifically is often a matter of being educated.

 

[tim]

I see more laughing people who seem to be having a good time, rather than upset and angry. Weird that.

I thought the same with the reporting from Southend. Both are seaside towns and its hot and lots of people are on holiday.

Whenever I see film of Hartlepool it looks like an attractive place, despite all the focus on its alleged problems.

 

[Skinny Ethel]

Its slightly different in the town centre. Very run down like a lot of northern towns.

 

[tim]

Its slightly different in the town centre. Very run down like a lot of northern towns.

Or British coastal resort towns in general, even on the South Coast and in Kent.

 

[Lotte]

It's like I said earlier, a lot of seaside towns are run down because people stopped going there once the package holidays became cheaper and more available, and they didn't really recover.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The rioters aren’t socialists or women

And they're mostly organising in public so not much call for undercover shenanigans.

 

[BigMoaner]

That's a really good post.

I feel like it's a dual life. There is the real world - work, family, mates, football, pub, getting the bus - where people do have different views but we can talk about them and we find some common ground. Then there is also the world of social media which, and this might be my age, I find atomising, anomic, fucked up and where political (but also wider social, cultural and economic issues) discussions are utterly toxic. Difference is emphasised and weaponised everywhere by everyone. The saturation by competing identity groups and the way the algorithms feed back to you your views only is genuinely disturbing.

While I think (hope) most people can tell the difference, the concern is a) how many people increasingly or even exclusively inhabit the latter and are cut off from the other world and b) the retreat of political engagement and activity out of the real world and into the social media hellscape.

yep, that's the only real grasp i have on things as well. all i have come to know is i find regularly, prolonged interaction with social media deeply uncomfortable. i do think this is becoming the norm though, and most people are really starting to better manage their relationship with this stuff. the sense of the lunatic you get when its kicking off online i think sometimes it's because they're the only ones left on it - the forever onliners, deeply meshed into it, getting their hits of dopamine, and you're right it's a hellscape, everyone triggering the fuck out of everyone else. no thank you. there's an old idea in philosophy about less is more, even when it comes to the quest and obtaining of knowledge - that shutting the fuck up now and then you will arrive at the depth and broadness you were seeking by instead rabbiting away all the time. you talk about exclusively online folks - it's teh summer holidays, and if i gave my son his ipad at 6am, he would no joke still be on it at 8pm bedtime. non stop. i refuse to do this. he can have a few horus a day but that's it. Boredom, quietness, inactivity, focus, human relationship with all these things are changing. Most of us now state of conciousness is a hyper attention, always flicking between things.

 

[existentialist]

It's like I said earlier, a lot of seaside towns are run down because people stopped going there once the package holidays became cheaper and more available, and they didn't really recover.

And they then became "dumping grounds" for people the government of the day didn't want around their lovely cities - relocate them to Hastings/Skegness/etc.

 

[lazythursday]

Mr perception of Southport, having visited quite a lot of times as it's an easy train ride from here, is that it's absolutely not your typical decaying seaside / northern town - it's reasonably affluent on the whole, generally attractive, much more successful high street than many. It's not Blackpool or Morecambe. It is also very white compared to some other parts of Merseyside.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

The people rioting are maybe 2,000-odd in total across the country, if that? They are white supremacist fash. They are total scum, and I don't care what hardships they may or may not have faced in their lives. Not interested.

They do not represent or reflect wider issues in society, not really, except perhaps in the fact that they clearly feel emboldened right now to take to the streets. They don't represent legitimate grievances or anger. That's not to say that legitimate grievances and anger don't exist, merely that these people don't represent it. They are antisocial scumbags against whom the rest of us should be able to unite regardless of our own particular grievances.

I think a bit of clarity on this point is needed.

Yes it's a relatively small number of people actually in the thick of the rioting. But the number of people who agree with them on social media is scary. I've been amazed to see how much support and understanding for them is being expressed. It's frightening to see how many people are expressing very unpleasant views.

 

[Karl Masks]

White working class.

are the ringleaders? I mean if you've got the wherewithall to travel around the nation stoking up riots, are you working class? Tommy Robinson can't seriously be considered working class anymore, someone's paying for what appears to be qutie the jet set lifestyle, making conspiracy movies, organising demos?

 

[steeplejack]

That's a really good post.

I feel like it's a dual life. There is the real world - work, family, mates, football, pub, getting the bus - where people do have different views but we can talk about them and we find some common ground. Then there is also the world of social media which, and this might be my age, I find atomising, anomic, fucked up and where political (but also wider social, cultural and economic issues) discussions are utterly toxic. Difference is emphasised and weaponised everywhere by everyone. The saturation by competing identity groups and the way the algorithms feed back to you your views only is genuinely disturbing.

While I think (hope) most people can tell the difference, the concern is a) how many people increasingly or even exclusively inhabit the latter and are cut off from the other world and b) the retreat of political engagement and activity out of the real world and into the social media hellscape.

The dark interpretation is that these riots are the first autumn leaves of the social breakdown that MIT predicted was likely by 2040.

No one is coming to save a common sense of humanity, so we have to try and re-build it by ourselves. Somehow.

 

[steeplejack]

I thought the same with the reporting from Southend. Both are seaside towns and its hot and lots of people are on holiday.

Whenever I see film of Hartlepool it looks like an attractive place, despite all the focus on its alleged problems.

View attachment 436003View attachment 436004

Hartlepool is alright. Plenty of worse towns.

A signifcant racist fucknugget element unfortunately and the town itself is under-policed for it's size.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Yes it's a relatively small number of people actually in the thick of the rioting. But the number of people who agree with them on social media is scary. I've been amazed to see how much support and understanding for them is being expressed. It's frightening to see how many people are expressing very unpleasant views.

They can be seen as the tip of the boil that makes up Reform/UKIP - behind the thugs are many more who are “just saying I remember when England was for the English and we had law and order round these parts and good jobs before all themuns arrived”

 

[lengualo]

They can be seen as the tip of the boil that makes up Reform/UKIP - behind the thugs are many more who are “just saying I remember when England was for the English and we had law and order round these parts and good jobs before all themuns arrived”

Damned right, the number of people who sympathise with the views of these fascists is alarming and has festered for a very long time.

 

[steeplejack]

Yes it's a relatively small number of people actually in the thick of the rioting. But the number of people who agree with them on social media is scary. I've been amazed to see how much support and understanding for them is being expressed. It's frightening to see how many people are expressing very unpleasant views.

I recognise that judicial response is only a small part of the solution but still I think we need to see exemplary very heavy jail terms for those involved in this. Similar to "doing a Carmont" in addressing the problem of razor gangs in Glasgow in the early 1950s- the judge, Carmont, stated that anyone standing convicted in his court convicted of razor offences would be given a minimum ten year sentence. It did play a part in ending what was becoming a very nasty problem in the city.

For those of us too old to stand on street corners trading punches with fat smelly drunk men in cheap leisurewear, there's a lot of intelligence work to be done in outing those expressing sympathy / support for fascist views on the internet.

Those convicted to spend long years in jail will very quickly realise how little their "racial comrades" or those in the populist wing of far right nationalism- Farage, Tice et al- give a shit about their self-induced predicament. That itself will also ripple out.

 

[existentialist]

Yes it's a relatively small number of people actually in the thick of the rioting. But the number of people who agree with them on social media is scary. I've been amazed to see how much support and understanding for them is being expressed. It's frightening to see how many people are expressing very unpleasant views.

I force myself to read some of those threads on social media, because I am keen to step outside of my own echo chamber, but it is depressing and shocking to see, for example, a litany of blatant racism, revisionism, and twisting of narratives that they go in for.

It sometimes feels, having read that shit, like I need to go and have a shower.

 

[lazythursday]

There's a significant racist-inclined segment of the population that is easily tempted to vote UKIP / far right parties, and spout off on social media. I'm unconvinced though that it's any larger than in the past - I don't think social attitudes surveys particularly back that up. Periodically it seems noisier, especially in particular geographic areas. Back in the 00s when lots of towns round these parts elected BNP councillors (Burnley, Oldham etc) I was pretty shocked to find my local sweet old lady running the local shop warning me about the muslims and the pakis clearly not even grasping why I'd be upset at her words. My cousin is a long standing fascist sympathiser, dropping in and out of various far-right groups. It ebbs and flows, stoked by events such as this one and the media, but think it's too soon to assume that it's radically gaining ground.

 

[Elpenor]

And they're mostly organising in public so not much call for undercover shenanigans.

Also no or very few physical meetings, it’s all done via online / telecoms networks isn’t it.

 

[not a trot]

are the ringleaders? I mean if you've got the wherewithall to travel around the nation stoking up riots, are you working class? Tommy Robinson can't seriously be considered working class anymore, someone's paying for what appears to be qutie the jet set lifestyle, making conspiracy movies, organising demos?

Yeah, the twat who got a brick in the bollocks, looks a proper jet setter.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I force myself to read some of those threads on social media, because I am keen to step outside of my own echo chamber, but it is depressing and shocking to see, for example, a litany of blatant racism, revisionism, and twisting of narratives that they go in for.

It sometimes feels, having read that shit, like I need to go and have a shower.

I've stopped trying to discuss anything with anyone on social media. It's too depressing and the level of 'debate' is too ignorant. In the days before SM, I hadn't realised quite how nasty and thick many people are. That sounds very judgmental, but it's hard to come to any other conclusion.

 

[Wilf]

Without wishing to derail the thread, I think the idea that some guys are just fighters is a bit of a cop out.

Not all men are fighters, not all want to fit into a tribe, want to assert dominance, are pumped after booze, or see violence as the best way of resolving things.

I suggest that the reasons why some men are like this are complex, but that it's mainly the result of socialisation and the adoption of patriarchial norms.

The sort of mob violence we've seen or the past few days also overlaps with male violence against women, as discussed on another thread ATM. Though there may not be exactly the same explanations, I suggest there's a lot of similarities.

Yes to all of that. Toxic masculinity, racism violence and DV are the foreground here. As to causes and background, obviously, it will depend on your view of the world whether you prioritise neoliberalism, patriarchy or other. But we are seeing a horrible interplay of these at the moment, with social media as a nasty accelerant.

 

[Lotte]

I've stopped trying to discuss anything with anyone on social media. It's too depressing and the level of 'debate' is too ignorant. In the days before SM, I hadn't realised quite how nasty and thick many people are. That sounds very judgmental, but it's hard to come to any other conclusion.

Same. I mainly go on it for football stuff and even then, I have to be careful. Also, arguing with dickheads on the internet is not good for my mental health.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Same. I mainly go on it for football stuff and even then, I have to be careful. Also, arguing with dickheads on the internet is not good for my mental health.

Which is why you come here?

 

[Wilf]

SIR Michael Take's take on the need to protest against wokery.

Very good, but I prefer videos that cover all relevant projectiles. This is a tragedy comedy in three acts bricks.

 

[The39thStep]

Might be a complete coincidence but bollock boy is 39 years old