Far-right response to Southport Outrage And Ongoing Violent Disorder

[Wookey]

2 yrs, and 6 months suspended for 5 years (plus restoration costs), respectively.

Five Just Stop Oil activists receive record sentences for planning to block M25

Campaigners receive longest ever sentences for non-violent protest after being convicted of conspiracy to cause public nuisance

www.theguardian.com

Really? Are we thinking of the same M25?

"Campaigners receive longest ever sentences for non-violent protest after being convicted of conspiracy to cause public nuisance."

 

[BigTom]

Five Just Stop Oil activists receive record sentences for planning to block M25

Campaigners receive longest ever sentences for non-violent protest after being convicted of conspiracy to cause public nuisance

www.theguardian.com

Really? Are we thinking of the same M25?

The climbers themselves got around 2 years, the longer sentences were for the organisers, or conspirators as the legislation would have them I guess.

Five Just Stop Oil protesters jailed for climbing gantries to block M25

Activists had admitted causing public nuisance for their part in four days of disruption on motorway in 2022

www.theguardian.com

 

[Gramsci]

Cobblers. Clearing up after riots is not going to stop them, and whilst the counter protests have been a key factor in challenging the scum this time, they're far from the only one, or arguably, even the most significant one.

You're never going to get rid of racism or racists. If immigration was halted tomorrow, they wouldn't go away. They'd just move on to another target.

The way to reduce violence is to make it too perilous to engage in. People are entitled to their political views, however odious, but when those views go beyond thoughts and words, and become violent actions, intimidation and attempts to hurt others, whether you're left or right, you should be policed to fuck and go to prison.

Does this apply to racists only?

As the policing/sentencing for the 2011 riots was the same.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Slap on the wrist and a small fine I reckon. Class privilege. See how this compares to that lad from Seacroft who did basically exactly the same.

No plea was entered by her, so remanded until at least Sept., I bet her and her husband are not happy with that.

Lucy Connolly appeared at Northampton Crown Court on Monday (August 12) after she was arrested on August 6 and then re-arrested on August 9.

The 41-year-old appeared before Judge Adrienne Lucking, but the hearing was adjourned and no plea was entered.

Judge Lucking adjourned the case and set a new, provisional hearing date of Monday September 2.

Connolly’s husband – Conservative councillor for Delapre and Rushmere Ray Connolly – watched on from the public gallery.

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/crime/northampton-childminder-remanded-in-custody-until-at-least-september-after-court-hearing-adjourned-4739191

 

[Saul Goodman]

No plea was entered by her, so remanded until at least Sept., I bet her and her husband are not happy with that.

I reckon that will have been on the advice of someone in the know. Don't enter a plea now, or you'll be doing the same time as the proles. Enter a guilty plea when heat has died down, and shed a few tears in court as your mate the judge gives you a 6 month suspended sentence and a wink.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Why has her case been adjourned? I don't understand that.

 

[andysays]

Why has her case been adjourned? I don't understand that.

Presumably it's because she didn't enter a plea.

In all the cases which have been concluded and people have been sentenced so far, they pleaded guilty, so there was no need for a trial.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Why has her case been adjourned? I don't understand that.

If they don't plead guilty they can't be dealt with by just a judge, they are entitled to a jury trial.

I suspect there's some plead bargaining going on, I remember reading about another person being remanded until Sept., because no plea was entered, but ended-up back in the Crown Court a couple of days later having decided to plead guilty to violent disorder, it was probably explained it was best to do that, rather than ending-up being charged with rioting, and risk a much longer sentence.

 

[Spymaster]

Five Just Stop Oil activists receive record sentences for planning to block M25

Campaigners receive longest ever sentences for non-violent protest after being convicted of conspiracy to cause public nuisance

www.theguardian.com

Really? Are we thinking of the same M25?

"Campaigners receive longest ever sentences for non-violent protest after being convicted of conspiracy to cause public nuisance."

I thought you were asking what I think they should've got.

 

[Spymaster]

Does this apply to racists only?

Of course not.

Read my last line.

 

[hitmouse]

Solid little statement from Nottingham FLAF:

Neither the fascists nor the state

State violence is not the answer

medium.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Solid little statement from Nottingham FLAF:

Neither the fascists nor the state

State violence is not the answer

medium.com

Yep, this is right. Cheering on as the state flexes its muscles is the wrong response, even when it comes to these fuckers.

 

[tony.c]

No plea was entered by her, so remanded until at least Sept., I bet her and her husband are not happy with that.

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/crime/northampton-childminder-remanded-in-custody-until-at-least-september-after-court-hearing-adjourned-4739191

It doesn't say there, but she was remanded in custody until next court appearance on 2 September, which she and husband will be even less happy about.

 

[CNT36]

Yeah, those convictions seem harsh, especially with the provocation. Normal Friday night shit like this probably wouldn’t even attract a custodial. Definitely an ‘example’ being set. Though again the previous (although a driving conviction) did add to the sentencing length. But those lads hadn’t gone out to cause trouble, there’s no equivalence to what the far right was up to. I reckon they should appeal that.

He was also on a suspended sentence and had previous for some racist shit.

 

[Spymaster]

Yep, this is right. Cheering on as the state flexes its muscles is the wrong response, even when it comes to these fuckers.

Nah. He’s just as wrong as you

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep, this is right. Cheering on as the state flexes its muscles is the wrong response, even when it comes to these fuckers.

It's the best time to gather information and hopefully there'll be a few full trials where people plead not guilty at which a range of useful things may be disclosed. So while cheering on the state may be wrong it's right to make the best of the situation, and to support community defenders caught up in the dragnet

 

[Saul Goodman]

Yep, this is right. Cheering on as the state flexes its muscles is the wrong response, even when it comes to these fuckers.

Is there a correct response, that doesn't involve violence?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Starmer, when he was the DPP, prioritised rapid prosecutions after the 2011 riots, and it seemed to have work then, that's the reason it's being done again.

Worked in the sense of earned him a knighthood, yeah.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nah. He’s just as wrong as you

I suspect that you like to think of yourself as the hard-nosed realist in the face of idealistic 'lefties', but in this instance, you demonstrate a naive trust in the authorities and their power structures. The authoritarian Starmer getting to flex his muscles for the first time. It won't be the last time.

 

[Wilf]

from the perspective of an atheist, i'd say that you can usually find something in the bible - or at least in one translation of it - that can justify almost any viewpoint / action.

but it can be amusing to quote leviticus 19 33-34 at racists

Though, to be honest, the Book of Leviticus is a bit of a mixed bag.

 

[Spymaster]

The authoritarian Starmer getting to flex his muscles for the first time. It won't be the last time.

I sincerely hope not.

You just want to be able to chuck bricks at the police too!

 

[Pickman's model]

I suspect that you like to think of yourself as the hard-nosed realist in the face of idealistic 'lefties', but in this instance, you demonstrate a naive trust in the authorities and their power structures. The authoritarian Starmer getting to flex his muscles for the first time. It won't be the last time.

It's not the first time as any observer of his time as dpp or leader of the Labour party over the past 4 years could tell you

 

[Pickman's model]

I sincerely hope not.

You've been a shammerite since the first time I said I didn't like him

 

[Gramsci]

The way to reduce violence is to make it too perilous to engage in. People are entitled to their political views, however odious, but when those views go beyond thoughts and words, and become violent actions, intimidation and attempts to hurt others, whether you're left or right, you should be policed to fuck and go to prison.

A purely punitive response does not work. I lived through three riots in 80s in Brixton and saw bits of the 2011 riots.

People getting arrested and locked up did not stop riots happening at other times. People didn't go hold on I might go to prison if I take part in this riot.

 

[smokedout]

If they don't plead guilty they can't be dealt with by just a judge, they are entitled to a jury trial.

I suspect there's some plead bargaining going on, I remember reading about another person being remanded until Sept., because no plea was entered, but ended-up back in the Crown Court a couple of days later having decided to plead guilty to violent disorder, it was probably explained it was best to do that, rather than ending-up being charged with rioting, and risk a much longer sentence.

Or that a not guilty plea will drag the case out and they'll end up doing longer on remand then they would if they just pled guilty. That's how lots of guilty verdicts were manufactured following the 2011 riots.

 

[Spymaster]

A purely punitive response does not work. I lived through three riots in 80s in Brixton and saw bits of the 2011 riots.

People getting arrested and locked up did not stop riots happening at other times. People didn't go hold on I might go to prison if I take part in this riot.

Of course some do. And they have this time.

But as I said, you're never going to stop racism anyway, so make it as painful as possible to act in a racist way. It'll reduce.

If that means a load of lefties get nicked for attacking people too, it's a bonus.

 

[smokedout]

A purely punitive response does not work. I lived through three riots in 80s in Brixton and saw bits of the 2011 riots.

People getting arrested and locked up did not stop riots happening at other times. People didn't go hold on I might go to prison if I take part in this riot.

Of course they don't. Usually things just fizzle out on their own. The berserkers get nicked or end up laying low/on the run, the more moderates back away, the ones who just got caught up in the moment panic and don't come out again and the police get their shit together and get the right resources into the right places to be able to stop it. In addition the counter protests made any further big city disturbances unviable. Threats of so called harsh sentences, which haven't been that harsh compared to other periods of disorder, had little or nothing to do with it.

 

[Wilf]

By the by, following on from the the discussion that the riots drew in possibly non-racist and/or vulnerable people (e.g. Middlesbrough bin woman): I wonder what the overlap was between the 2011 rioters and this one? 2011 had anti-racist origins in that the spark was a racist police murder, whereas 2024 had emphatically racist immediate origins. But both had deeper origins and drew people in for diverse reasons, some of which were extensions of 'normal' low level disorder. I'm wondering if there were people involved in 2011 who were also involved 13 years later, but more importantly, about the common non-ideological routes into the riots.

 

[MickiQ]

A purely punitive response does not work. I lived through three riots in 80s in Brixton and saw bits of the 2011 riots.

People getting arrested and locked up did not stop riots happening at other times. People didn't go hold on I might go to prison if I take part in this riot.

it clearly doesn't stop rioting forever but then nothing ever will but it's hard not to argue that it helps supress them, you're quoting a period of over 40 years when most of the time people were not in fact actually rioting.
I would agree that there should be other measures as well but banging people up is definitely a pro not a con.

 

[Gramsci]

Of course some do. And they have this time.

But as I said, you're never going to stop racism anyway, so make it as painful as possible to act in a racist way. It'll reduce.

If that means a load of lefties get nicked for attacking people too, it's a bonus.

I wasn't talking about racism. I was taking up your point that violent disorder should be "policed to fuck and (people) go to prison"

So I take it from your post that whether its something like the 2011 violent disorder over police shooting of Mark Duggan or the recent violent disorder then those who take part should be policed to fuck.

The reasons behind it are irrelevant