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Elon Musk - news and discussion

As a person on the autistic spectrum I'm fucking appalled at the excuses being offered for what is clearly deliberate behaviour on Musk's part. He did it twice. That wasn't a tic or a stim. It was a calculated gesture. What makes it worse is the reaction of the audience. They weren't shocked or taken aback. They were rapturous. The fash and the trolling pieces of shit making bad faith defences of this shit are enabling it.
 
It is ultimately a waste of time engaging with people who simply refuse to believe that Elon Musk made a nazi salute at the inauguration. Many of them will be on a wind up.

Maybe a better question is what should we do / what happens next.

The former is being dealt with here How should the non-party political left respond to the rise of the far right?

The latter maybe we can do here? My guess is that Trump won't especially like that Musk has taken the attention away from him at his big ceremony. Most people think their relationship will be time limited (as with Bannon). It will be nice when they fall out.
 
For me the issue is not "is Elon Musk an awful man". Yes I think he is, generally, an awful man.

Was Father Ted an awful man? Well, not as awful as Elon Musk but as others have said he was portrayed throughout as somewhat feckless, a moral coward and so on. And the setup for the Hitler scene included him doing some essentially racist caricaturing, so that his nature had already been called into doubt.

As I have always understood it, in that scene, we are supposed to see that there has been some bad behaviour from Father Ted, but when he appears at the window saluting with a Hitler moustache, we are not supposed to understand that Father Ted has set up some kind of "plausible deniability" scenario where he can openly and intentionally do a Hitler impersonation. We are not supposed to assume that he pre-arranged for the black square to be on the window. We are supposed to some unfortunate things conspiring to make him look loads worse than he really is. The setup is of course important - we know he's not an entirely innocent party.

(By the way very similar scenarios are the core of pretty much every Curb Your Enthusiasm episode)

So the issue for me in the Elon Musk case, is that so many people are willing to jump straight to the conclusion that it was premeditated and intentional to recreate a Nazi salute (perhaps with some level of plausible deniability). That's important because it would indicate that Elon Musk feels sufficiently emboldened to make fascist gestures in the open. To some extent this is independent of whether he himself is literally a Nazi sympathiser or white supremacist (maybe he is, or maybe he is to some extent) - it's about whether we (or at least America) is now living in a world where people feel it's an option for them to make such a gesture intentionally and get away with it.

I personally am not convinced that we are, because for me it is not at all beyond doubt that what he did was intended to be read in the way many are keen for it to be. There is loads of precedent for him doing awkward and odd stuff on stage, it's part of his personality.

It's getting too close to conspiracy thinking for me, to assume without any doubt that what happened was someone openly demonstrating their fascist sympathies on a stage that half the world was viewing, and therefore that's the world we are now living in and we are watching a repeat of the rise of the Nazis.

Just like deciding that Father Ted has been emboldened by the state of Craggy Island society to openly declare himself a Nazi and intimidate the island's Chinese community. No, that's not what we were watching, we were watching a bit of an idiot getting caught in an unfortunate happenstance.
 
He’s a fucking Nazi son of a grooming apartheid Nepo daddy.
He’s now calling for antifa to be in place of the freed thugs that attacked the capitol.
Fuck defending idiots like this.
Elon Musk
@elonmusk
6h
Replying to @JackPosobiec
As it turns out, some prison space for antifa criminals is available now that the J6 political prisoners have been freed …
485



Copied from nitter.
 
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No, that's not what we were watching, we were watching a bit of an idiot getting caught in an unfortunate happenstance.
I don't think you can know that beyond all doubt anymore than others can know it was a Nazi salute beyond all doubt.
However, the fact (correct me if I'm wrong as I avoid Twitter and don't read his tweets) that he hasn't clearly stated it wasn't puts him in the far right camp for me. Even with your "idiot" reading of of the situation he's happy to encourage every Nazi crank, thug and fellow traveller rather than just say that's not what it was.
 
For me the issue is not "is Elon Musk an awful man". Yes I think he is, generally, an awful man.

Was Father Ted an awful man? Well, not as awful as Elon Musk but as others have said he was portrayed throughout as somewhat feckless, a moral coward and so on. And the setup for the Hitler scene included him doing some essentially racist caricaturing, so that his nature had already been called into doubt.

As I have always understood it, in that scene, we are supposed to see that there has been some bad behaviour from Father Ted, but when he appears at the window saluting with a Hitler moustache, we are not supposed to understand that Father Ted has set up some kind of "plausible deniability" scenario where he can openly and intentionally do a Hitler impersonation. We are not supposed to assume that he pre-arranged for the black square to be on the window. We are supposed to some unfortunate things conspiring to make him look loads worse than he really is. The setup is of course important - we know he's not an entirely innocent party.

(By the way very similar scenarios are the core of pretty much every Curb Your Enthusiasm episode)

So the issue for me in the Elon Musk case, is that so many people are willing to jump straight to the conclusion that it was premeditated and intentional to recreate a Nazi salute (perhaps with some level of plausible deniability). That's important because it would indicate that Elon Musk feels sufficiently emboldened to make fascist gestures in the open. To some extent this is independent of whether he himself is literally a Nazi sympathiser or white supremacist (maybe he is, or maybe he is to some extent) - it's about whether we (or at least America) is now living in a world where people feel it's an option for them to make such a gesture intentionally and get away with it.

I personally am not convinced that we are, because for me it is not at all beyond doubt that what he did was intended to be read in the way many are keen for it to be. There is loads of precedent for him doing awkward and odd stuff on stage, it's part of his personality.

It's getting too close to conspiracy thinking for me, to assume without any doubt that what happened was someone openly demonstrating their fascist sympathies on a stage that half the world was viewing, and therefore that's the world we are now living in and we are watching a repeat of the rise of the Nazis.

Just like deciding that Father Ted has been emboldened by the state of Craggy Island society to openly declare himself a Nazi and intimidate the island's Chinese community. No, that's not what we were watching, we were watching a bit of an idiot getting caught in an unfortunate happenstance.
I’m sorry, but this just reads as convoluted twisting, turning, and wilful determination not to accept the evidence of your own eyes.

Maybe, like a frog being boiled, you’re now cooked and can’t see you are.
 
yes time for plausible deniability passed a long time ago - this is no joke

For some it was never a joke to begin with.

For me the issue is not "is Elon Musk an awful man". Yes I think he is, generally, an awful man.

Was Father Ted an awful man? Well, not as awful as Elon Musk but as others have said he was portrayed throughout as somewhat feckless, a moral coward and so on. And the setup for the Hitler scene included him doing some essentially racist caricaturing, so that his nature had already been called into doubt.

As I have always understood it, in that scene, we are supposed to see that there has been some bad behaviour from Father Ted, but when he appears at the window saluting with a Hitler moustache, we are not supposed to understand that Father Ted has set up some kind of "plausible deniability" scenario where he can openly and intentionally do a Hitler impersonation. We are not supposed to assume that he pre-arranged for the black square to be on the window. We are supposed to some unfortunate things conspiring to make him look loads worse than he really is. The setup is of course important - we know he's not an entirely innocent party.

(By the way very similar scenarios are the core of pretty much every Curb Your Enthusiasm episode)

So the issue for me in the Elon Musk case, is that so many people are willing to jump straight to the conclusion that it was premeditated and intentional to recreate a Nazi salute (perhaps with some level of plausible deniability). That's important because it would indicate that Elon Musk feels sufficiently emboldened to make fascist gestures in the open. To some extent this is independent of whether he himself is literally a Nazi sympathiser or white supremacist (maybe he is, or maybe he is to some extent) - it's about whether we (or at least America) is now living in a world where people feel it's an option for them to make such a gesture intentionally and get away with it.

I personally am not convinced that we are, because for me it is not at all beyond doubt that what he did was intended to be read in the way many are keen for it to be. There is loads of precedent for him doing awkward and odd stuff on stage, it's part of his personality.

It's getting too close to conspiracy thinking for me, to assume without any doubt that what happened was someone openly demonstrating their fascist sympathies on a stage that half the world was viewing, and therefore that's the world we are now living in and we are watching a repeat of the rise of the Nazis.

Just like deciding that Father Ted has been emboldened by the state of Craggy Island society to openly declare himself a Nazi and intimidate the island's Chinese community. No, that's not what we were watching, we were watching a bit of an idiot getting caught in an unfortunate happenstance.

Trolling about bathroom doors is cute and all, but fuck this shit. You're making excuses for cunts who should know better.
 
For some it was never a joke to begin with.



Trolling about bathroom doors is cute and all, but fuck this shit. You're making excuses for cunts who should know better.
aye we just had race pogroms in this country but a few weeks ago, luckily no one got burned alive.... the idea Elon Free Tommy Robinson Legitimate Nazi Concerns To Kick Out Migrants Musk might be the source of a bit of light afternoon trolling is pretty sickening.
 
For me the issue is not "is Elon Musk an awful man". Yes I think he is, generally, an awful man.

Was Father Ted an awful man? Well, not as awful as Elon Musk but as others have said he was portrayed throughout as somewhat feckless, a moral coward and so on. And the setup for the Hitler scene included him doing some essentially racist caricaturing, so that his nature had already been called into doubt.

As I have always understood it, in that scene, we are supposed to see that there has been some bad behaviour from Father Ted, but when he appears at the window saluting with a Hitler moustache, we are not supposed to understand that Father Ted has set up some kind of "plausible deniability" scenario where he can openly and intentionally do a Hitler impersonation. We are not supposed to assume that he pre-arranged for the black square to be on the window. We are supposed to some unfortunate things conspiring to make him look loads worse than he really is. The setup is of course important - we know he's not an entirely innocent party.

(By the way very similar scenarios are the core of pretty much every Curb Your Enthusiasm episode)

So the issue for me in the Elon Musk case, is that so many people are willing to jump straight to the conclusion that it was premeditated and intentional to recreate a Nazi salute (perhaps with some level of plausible deniability). That's important because it would indicate that Elon Musk feels sufficiently emboldened to make fascist gestures in the open. To some extent this is independent of whether he himself is literally a Nazi sympathiser or white supremacist (maybe he is, or maybe he is to some extent) - it's about whether we (or at least America) is now living in a world where people feel it's an option for them to make such a gesture intentionally and get away with it.

I personally am not convinced that we are, because for me it is not at all beyond doubt that what he did was intended to be read in the way many are keen for it to be. There is loads of precedent for him doing awkward and odd stuff on stage, it's part of his personality.

It's getting too close to conspiracy thinking for me, to assume without any doubt that what happened was someone openly demonstrating their fascist sympathies on a stage that half the world was viewing, and therefore that's the world we are now living in and we are watching a repeat of the rise of the Nazis.

Just like deciding that Father Ted has been emboldened by the state of Craggy Island society to openly declare himself a Nazi and intimidate the island's Chinese community. No, that's not what we were watching, we were watching a bit of an idiot getting caught in an unfortunate happenstance.

oh fuck off to 4 chan if you want to keep this line up
 
I don't think you can know that beyond all doubt anymore than others can know it was a Nazi salute beyond all doubt.
However, the fact (correct me if I'm wrong as I avoid Twitter and don't read his tweets) that he hasn't clearly stated it wasn't puts him in the far right camp for me. Even with your "idiot" reading of of the situation he's happy to encourage every Nazi crank, thug and fellow traveller rather than just say that's not what it was.

This is where I'm at. Whether he was doing a nazi salute, doing it a little bit in a way that might plausibly be denied, or not intending to do anything like it, the fact he hasn't come out and distanced himself from all the neo nazi kudos for it says what you need to know... If you weren't already aware of all his other right wing shit and shit stirring.


Pointless arguing about whether he's an actual nazi, cos playing, trolling whatever. He's a right wing lying, anti human cunt and should be no where near power.
 
I don't think you can know that beyond all doubt anymore than others can know it was a Nazi salute beyond all doubt.
However, the fact (correct me if I'm wrong as I avoid Twitter and don't read his tweets) that he hasn't clearly stated it wasn't puts him in the far right camp for me. Even with your "idiot" reading of of the situation he's happy to encourage every Nazi crank, thug and fellow traveller rather than just say that's not what it was.

I've not said I know anything beyond all doubt - pretty much the opposite.

You've quoted what I said about Father Ted not Musk. Musk is much more than an idiot, he's a danger to all of us, I don't dispute that.

I was trying to explain my reading of what actually happened, and what can be concluded from it with certainty. Of course I knew that I'd then get people telling me I'm making excuses for Musk, etc etc.
 
If, before the incident, Musk had condemned the AfD, told Steven Yaxley-Lennon he's scum, then immediately apologized, stating he'd messed up, then, yeah, there is some room for the benefit of the doubt.
But he didn't. So there isn't.
It's terrifying that the media has not called this out more.
 
I've not said I know anything beyond all doubt - pretty much the opposite.

You've quoted what I said about Father Ted not Musk. Musk is much more than an idiot, he's a danger to all of us, I don't dispute that.

I was trying to explain my reading of what actually happened, and what can be concluded from it with certainty. Of course I knew that I'd then get people telling me I'm making excuses for Musk, etc etc.
Ok, I thought the "Just like" bit meant it applied to the Musk situation as well.

I think my point stands though. If unintentional it seems like either a happy accident or he is trapped into not clarifying by his own beliefs or his cred with the far right. Of course ego is also an issue with these Tony Stark wannabes. Maybe he'd rather embolden the fash than show a little humility.
 
Here's an archived version of that Megan McArdle opinion piece if anyone's interested.
It's fatuous.

TLDR: Believe the best in people where there is doubt. She has made an awkward gesture like that at a wedding when they all did. She has a friend who went to a fancy dress party as a ghost but looked like a Klansman. Musk is awkward and enjoys trolling people, and besides he can't be a Nazi because he hangs out with Bibi and tried to talk Kanye West out of his anti-semitism. As if the only kind of Nazi, or the only kind of fascist, is an anti-semite. And anyway, you have to compromise in politics.
 
For me the issue is not "is Elon Musk an awful man". Yes I think he is, generally, an awful man.

Was Father Ted an awful man? Well, not as awful as Elon Musk but as others have said he was portrayed throughout as somewhat feckless, a moral coward and so on. And the setup for the Hitler scene included him doing some essentially racist caricaturing, so that his nature had already been called into doubt.

As I have always understood it, in that scene, we are supposed to see that there has been some bad behaviour from Father Ted, but when he appears at the window saluting with a Hitler moustache, we are not supposed to understand that Father Ted has set up some kind of "plausible deniability" scenario where he can openly and intentionally do a Hitler impersonation. We are not supposed to assume that he pre-arranged for the black square to be on the window. We are supposed to some unfortunate things conspiring to make him look loads worse than he really is. The setup is of course important - we know he's not an entirely innocent party.

(By the way very similar scenarios are the core of pretty much every Curb Your Enthusiasm episode)

So the issue for me in the Elon Musk case, is that so many people are willing to jump straight to the conclusion that it was premeditated and intentional to recreate a Nazi salute (perhaps with some level of plausible deniability). That's important because it would indicate that Elon Musk feels sufficiently emboldened to make fascist gestures in the open. To some extent this is independent of whether he himself is literally a Nazi sympathiser or white supremacist (maybe he is, or maybe he is to some extent) - it's about whether we (or at least America) is now living in a world where people feel it's an option for them to make such a gesture intentionally and get away with it.

I personally am not convinced that we are, because for me it is not at all beyond doubt that what he did was intended to be read in the way many are keen for it to be. There is loads of precedent for him doing awkward and odd stuff on stage, it's part of his personality.

It's getting too close to conspiracy thinking for me, to assume without any doubt that what happened was someone openly demonstrating their fascist sympathies on a stage that half the world was viewing, and therefore that's the world we are now living in and we are watching a repeat of the rise of the Nazis.

Just like deciding that Father Ted has been emboldened by the state of Craggy Island society to openly declare himself a Nazi and intimidate the island's Chinese community. No, that's not what we were watching, we were watching a bit of an idiot getting caught in an unfortunate happenstance.
I don’t expect it to make me popular on this thread, but I agree with you 100%.

He did a remarkably effective impression of someone doing a Nazi salute, but if you look at the context and his history of over-excitedly behaving with zero self awareness or control when in front of a large crowd, the benign interpretation is just way more likely.
 
I agree with Chookers and Curry.

Musk is a fucking weirdo, and a dangerous prick, but as I said at the time, I'm not sure he was chucking Nazi salutes on purpose.
 
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