During the biggest crisis of capitalism of our generation, why is the UK anarcho-left not growing?

[DotCommunist]

I haven't said mass protests or riots won't take place. But as recent decades have already told us, mass protests have become a mere safety valve for the system (with the majority of the working class, let alone the population as a whole, having no time for them). Riots, meanwhile, as we saw last year, will likely take the form of the marginalised violently turning on the mainstream working class.

And when it's all over everybody will vote Labour. Or Tory.

and when the marginalised outweigh the mainstream?

 

[LLETSA]

"



It's of a piece with the other issues: Standard authoritarian practice to displace criticism of the regime, and the surge in antisocial behavior is very real, from verbals right up to physical assault. There's nothing "alleged" about the fact that reported instances have surged, and that they've done so in fairly close step with government propaganda.

It may be the case in general, but not knowing any seriously disabled people, I can't say if this is just hyperbole. When I go down the market on Saturdays to buy my veg, I don't see disabled people being tipped out of their mobility scooters; I see them mostly treated with consideration by some of society's poorest people, black, white and Asian.

 

[LLETSA]

and when the marginalised outweigh the mainstream?

It will never happen. Or if it does, the a new set of marginalised will be conjured up for the rest to openly or secretly despise.

That's the strategy; haven't you noticed?

 

[Pickman's model]

Get to fuck Phil, I haven't the patience for your little games these days.

Fucking give it up you thick cunt.

You say: things aren't getting more authoritarian.
I say: you should get out more.

You say: the state protects capitalism.
I say: it's not doing it very well, is it? You're confusing the (ephemeral) government with the (permanent) state; you're saying that the particular (the british state) defends the general (capitalism). But perhaps worst of all, you display an utter fucking ignorance of what the state *is*. Marx said the state is the means by which one class oppresses another. So, the judiciary, the police, prisons etc. In other words, though, for Marx the state is simply a tool for control of the masses. It's not, as I suspect you think, the lender of last resort for the banks. That's not 'the state', that's the government. The two are not synonymous.

Now fuck off.

 

[LLETSA]

Fucking give it up you thick cunt.

You say: things aren't getting more authoritarian.
I say: you should get out more.

You say: the state protects capitalism.
I say: it's not doing it very well, is it? You're confusing the (ephemeral) government with the (permanent) state; you're saying that the particular (the british state) defends the general (capitalism). But perhaps worst of all, you display an utter fucking ignorance of what the state *is*. Marx said the state is the means by which one class oppresses another. So, the judiciary, the police, prisons etc. In other words, though, for Marx the state is simply a tool for control of the masses. It's not, as I suspect you think, the lender of last resort for the banks. That's not 'the state', that's the government. The two are not synonymous.

Now fuck off.

You is talking to da hand, Phil, 'cos I is not listenin'.

 

[Pickman's model]

You is talking to da hand, Phil,cos I is not listenin'.

if you did bother listening you might not post as much shite as you do

 

[DotCommunist]

It will never happen. Or if it does, the a new set of marginalised will be conjured up for the rest to openly or secretly despise.

That's the strategy; haven't you noticed?

of course. It's a strategy of fragmentation that has proved effective for many years now. But it is showing cracks. There is only so far people can be pushed. Thatcherite wrecking took place in a different time, a different place. I'm not so certain as you that the pols will get away with it this time. Heh, me the optimist.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

What is your alternative?

 

[LLETSA]

of course. It's a strategy of fragmentation that has proved effective for many years now. But it is showing cracks. There is only so far people can be pushed. Thatcherite wrecking took place in a different time, a different place. I'm not so certain as you that the pols will get away with it this time. Heh, me the optimist.

It never ceases to amaze me how often is peddled this idea that 'people will only be pushed so far and then...' in a situation where the working class movement and the ideas on which it rested have never been weaker.

The idea of an alternative was defeated. Crushed by the people who have all the money and power and therefore cannot lose. We are living in the fall-out. Permanently.

 

[DotCommunist]

@ captainhuzzah

I refer you to the will of the people


yes thats a cop-out- I'd quite fancy workers co-ops, workers councils- yes and a Party led direction. And yes you know better than I how badly that can go wrong. But it doesn't have to. Realistically such a thing would find itself assaulted on all sides by enemies within and without who are fine with capitalism. There are finer minds than mine who can work out the new direction. Parecon is one direction I think is interesting but as pointed out to me once before it does sort of sound like you'd be fining yer housemate one egg because he had not done the washing up.

 

[DotCommunist]

It never ceases to amaze me how often is peddled this idea that 'people will only be pushed so far and then...' in a situation where the working class movement and the ideas on which it rested have never been weaker.

The alternative was defeated. Crushed by the people who have all the money and power and therefore cannot lose. We are living in the fall-out. Permanently.

it's always decried as impossible till it happens

 

[LLETSA]

@ captainhuzzah

I refer you to the will of the people


yes thats a cop-out- I'd quite fancy workers co-ops, workers councils- yes and a Party led direction. And yes you know better than I how badly that can go wrong. But it doesn't have to. Realistically such a thing would find itself assaulted on all sides by enemies within and without who are fine with capitalism. There are finer minds than mine who can work out the new direction. Parecon is one direction I think is interesting but as pointed out to me once before it does sort of sound like you'd be fining yer housemate one egg because he had not done the washing up.

In the mass-media directed society, all this is mere hobbyism for the minority of people who can't live with the unpalatable reality.

 

[LLETSA]

it's always decried as impossible till it happens

In the 20th century socialist revolution was never decried as impossible even by its enemies. Now those who advocate it (or something along those lines) secretly don't believe in it, and its enemies have started looking for new bogeymen (except for the nutty right who think everybody but themselves are communists.)

 

[Bernie Gunther]

@ captainhuzzah

I refer you to the will of the people


yes thats a cop-out- I'd quite fancy workers co-ops, workers councils- yes and a Party led direction. And yes you know better than I how badly that can go wrong. But it doesn't have to. Realistically such a thing would find itself assaulted on all sides by enemies within and without who are fine with capitalism. There are finer minds than mine who can work out the new direction. Parecon is one direction I think is interesting but as pointed out to me once before it does sort of sound like you'd be fining yer housemate one egg because he had not done the washing up.

The nice thing about Parecon is that it can actually answer quite a lot of specific questions about how an alternative to capitalism might work.

e.g. 'How are luxury goods to be fairly distributed come the revolution ...' or 'How will we decide whether to make luxury goods rather than say more toilet paper?' and so on.

That's why I used it for that thought-experiment about what a sustainable, egalitarian society might look like in practice, that I did ages ago in the theory forum.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/interactive-eco-anarchist-utopia.203294/

That's not to particularly endorse it, but just to comment that it's almost unique in that it actually has a lot of stuff worked out in concrete detail. I basically used it to avoid having to make up all that detail myself for the thought-experiment.

 

[DotCommunist]

and again when the minority becomes the majority? These things don't happen quickly but when they do, they do. Claiming that mass media renders all cow-like doesn't seem valid to me

 

[Random]

it's always decried as impossible till it happens

But before "it" happens there are usually signs that change is possible. Where are the signs right now? I'd love to see them.

 

[LLETSA]

and again when the minority becomes the majority? These things don't happen quickly but when they do, they do. Claiming that mass media renders all cow-like doesn't seem valid to me

When the minority what becomes the majority?

 

[DotCommunist]

the 'marginalised'. the very poor.What happens when the very poor outweigh the 'doing ok' ? especially when the new poor are used to far better and not raised in poverty?

 

[LLETSA]

But before "it" happens there are usually signs that change is possible. Where are the signs right now? I'd love to see them.

Of course, at the bottom of all this is the mistaken belief, long-held by both those who advocated it and opposed it, that socialism/communism was an alternative to capitalism and not, like the working class movement, a by-product of it, sharing all its basic assumptions.

 

[LLETSA]

the 'marginalised'. the very poor.What happens when the very poor outweigh the 'doing ok' ? especially when the new poor are used to far better and not raised in poverty?

There will always be some doing better than others and these will be turned against each other. Even in the worst situation, we are not going to see a society uniformly impoverished.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I read in a book the other day that there has never been a society without leaders in human history, and that even democracy don't work in a crisis.

Personally I'd like to have a pretty good idea what the fuck the altnerative is before I completely denounce capitalism. We're better off than a country in full on civil war and famine after all.

did the book include Hunter gatherer societies?

 

[peterkro]

We'll build the new world in the shell of the old one.Not an idle boost but a demonstration of how it can happen.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Most left wing groups and actions fall under the description of subculture or clique rather than politics. 300 different groups each with a dozen members, who in turn harbour Stalin fantasies.

I would rather give Michael Gove lifetime presidency than let any of those psychos near a position of power.

the point is to abolish power.

 

[cesare]

the point is to abolish power.

The trouble is, you can't "abolish power". The best you can do is mitigate the adverse effects of abuse of power.

 

[TremulousTetra]

The trouble is, you can't "abolish power". The best you can do is mitigate the adverse effects of abuse of power.

well some socialists and anarchists believe you can do so. in an anarchist/Communist society, even if you could, it would be highly unlikely you would want to, and even if you'd would want to, there would be very little point to abusing 'power', I'm guessing.

 

[Frances Lengel]

What did LLETSA end up having for his dinner?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

We'll build the new world in the shell of the old one.Not an idle boost but a demonstration of how it can happen.

An empty sentence.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

well some socialists and anarchists believe you can do so.

I've not met any who believe that.

 

[peterkro]

An empty sentence.

Really, you want to compete for power ,fire ahead ,if I want to advance the destruction of power I'm somehow fighting the wrong battle? I don't think so. We'll see who perseveres not you I think.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I've not met any who believe that.

you have.