During the biggest crisis of capitalism of our generation, why is the UK anarcho-left not growing?

[BigTom]

Our technological development has enabled a vast population to result. People want to have as many babies as they can, while the NHS is doing a good job keeping the existing population going for longer. This results in greater competition for jobs.

Sorry for snipping the quote but i can't see a way of making that last sentence bold in tapatalk on my phone.

Anyway, i don't think you can say this because increasing population also increases demand which creates jobs. I've no idea how you'd go about working out whether you'd create more new jobs than people or less though. But you state it like it's a simple conclusion of population increase when it's not.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Who wants to live in a hunter gatherer society?

Line up over there please.

good point well made. but I wasn't suggesting we return to hg lifestyle e.

 

[Pickman's model]

good point well made. but I wasn't suggesting we return to hg lifestyle e.

I'm not sure you'd be entirely suited to such a lifestyle, given your predeliction for coming out with utter bollocks. You'd be like fatty out of lord of the flies

 

[ViolentPanda]

What did LLETSA end up having for his dinner?

A plate of deep-fried despair, washed down with a mug of misery.

 

[LLETSA]

A plate of deep-fried despair, washed down with a mug of misery.

I'm always at a loss as to why some of you think that trying to articulate what you see happening makes you miserable or despairing just because the conclusions are not what you'd prefer. Or why it's necessary to keep up the illusion that it will all be OK in the end when all the evidence clearly shows that it won't.

Optimism guarantees disappointment 99% of the time.* What happens fucking well happens.

I'm only telling you what you all know really anyway.


* This is a scientifically proven fact.

 

[LLETSA]

DP

 

[treelover]

You are an intellectual giant, Garfield. Do you understand anything at all about politics ? Are you about 15 years old ? It's true that as an everyday reality most people hold to a grab bag of often mutually contradictory opinions and models of the world. But then we are all fed a jumble of contradictory shit by the mass media all the time. Its called "ideology", eg, some people who think they are "Left wing" and "for the workers" sometimes also still love the Queen, and/or are hostile to Muslims or Jews. This is not a "good thing"... it hides the true nature of society and the real interests of the 99% from people.

So we can all have a "pick'n'mix" approach to sorting out the greatest world capitalist crisis since the 1930's can we ? "Neo Liberalist policies which defend the wealth of the 1%" , seamlessly meets "socialist policies to protect the working class" . Wake up Garfield, the real world isn't actually one where you can just choose from a "menu" of politics to suit yourself, where nobody loses out .. its time to decide whose side you're on. But I think we all know which side that is don't we ?

Orwell once wrote, that the worst advertisement for Socialism was its adherents'', I can see what he means....

 

[treelover]

Yes, yes-I'm quoting myself.

I suppose that this explains the way such a lot of people can see the problems afflicting society but reject the left's traditional solutions. People know that they're living in a society of growing economic inequality, but can see that it isn't one of growing authoritarianism. Neo-liberal economics and, more widely, mass consumerism has, hand-in-hand with liberal left cultural hegemony, given us a society where if you have enough money you can pretty much do what you want (this also explains why the mostly working class populations of the formerly Communist-ruled states rejected all 'third-road' type notions and plumped for the consumer capitalism they could see their western counterparts 'enjoyed.') Therefore, people simply see their main problem as not having enough personal income, a message reinforced constantly by an inescapable media babble (something else the pioneer thinkers of socialism and anarchism could never have envisaged.) That they never will have enough personal income doesn't really come into it.

Absolute nonsense, are you aware of the very authoritarian FIDESZ Govt in Hungary?, for example, you could also ask the 182 cyclist arrested en masse last week for cycling near the olympic park...

 

[ayatollah]

Orwell once wrote, that the worst advertisement for Socialism was its adherents'', I can see what he means....

Well !... that's REALLY HURTFUL , treelover.. I think you should just be a bit more sensitive when you are hurling your razerblade sharp personal barbs about... with just no concern for the consequences !

 

[LLETSA]

Absolute nonsense, are you aware of the authoritarian FIDESZ Govt in Hungary, for example, you could also ask the 182 cyclist arrested en masse last week for cycling near the olympic park...

The authoritarian government in Hungary is not impeding the Hungarian people (who freely elected it) from indulging in mass consumerism (although the economic meltdown might be.) And so some cyclists were arrested near the Olympic Park? Not wanting disruption to a worldwide showcase sporting event is hardly a sign of oncoming fascism.

 

[treelover]

No one has said authoritarianism has to always be allied with Fascism, there are of course variants of the former...

 

[Pickman's model]

A plate of deep-fried despair, washed down with a mug of misery.

so, angst for dessert with melancholy for breakfast

 

[LLETSA]

No one has said authoritarianism has to always be allied with Fascism, there are of course variants of the former...

So what was this? The not wanting the multi-billion pound Olympic games effort to be disrupted variant of authoritarianism?

And what of the Hungarian government? They didn't come to power in a coup and have behaved similarly to any centre-right or nominally centre-left government elsewhere in the EU.

 

[Gmart]

Sorry for snipping the quote but i can't see a way of making that last sentence bold in tapatalk on my phone.

Anyway, i don't think you can say this because increasing population also increases demand which creates jobs. I've no idea how you'd go about working out whether you'd create more new jobs than people or less though. But you state it like it's a simple conclusion of population increase when it's not.

Fair point, we create markets and jobs at the same time. I was referring to the ability of the old to work for longer, the young to continue coming through into the job market. If there is adequate demand to soak up these factors then that would be fine.

 

[love detective]

Orwell once wrote, that the worst advertisement for Socialism was its adherents'', I can see what he means....

Yeah it's a bit like that quote that France would be a great place if it wasn't full of the French - same thing seems to apply to the Left

 

[butchersapron]

Some SOCIALISTS have managed to end up in a position where they apply that to the working class.

 

[rioted]

Some SOCIALISTS have managed to end up in a position where they treat the working class as a monolithic block with absolutely no responsibility for the continuation of capitalism. Some SOCIALISTS wear the rose tint in their spectacles so deep that they can't tell friend from foe.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh stop whinging Harry.

 

[Pickman's model]

Some SOCIALISTS have managed to end up in a position where they treat the working class as a monolithic block with absolutely no responsibility for the continuation of capitalism. Some SOCIALISTS wear the rose tint in their spectacles so deep that they can't tell friend from foe.

you seem to be some sort of capitalist

 

[Lo Siento.]

Anyway...
I think the premise of the OP is flawed. The crisis as experienced in the U.K. is not currently of the order that you would expect to create a mass shift away from established political patterns. It certainly is in Greece and Spain, where support for the traditional options has dropped to around 50% now and continues falling.

What you might expect is modest recruitment for any groups doing effective work, which in turn could set down a marker and establish a basis for growth further along the line. But...

 

[DotCommunist]

Orwell once wrote, that the worst advertisement for Socialism was its adherents'', I can see what he means....

while its amusing, you have to remember that orwell used every spare surface or receptacle as an ashtray, drank 4 day old tea out of a samovar which never got cleaned and generally lived like a fucking tramp.So it's a bit of a log/own eye situation there.

 

[JHE]

People who expect the current economic problems or possible worse ones to come to generate support for the would-be revolutionary left are almost certainly going to be disappointed.

To gain support the would-be revolutionaries would have to convince people that they have a realistic and desirable alternative. Who believes that they have?

People haven't turned and aren't going to turn to Anarcho-Wotsitry (or Reheated Bolshevism) just because times are hard and they dislike the status quo.

There are various very different things they might do. Possibilities include the following three:

• Stick with the current political system but with harsher policies. 'We can't really afford the welfare state now, can we? We all have to make sacrifices for the common good.'
• Amend the existing system to make it more authoritarian. This wouldn't be fascism, just: 'We need a strong government with a strong leader in times like these.' I recently listened to a young Russian explaining why she supports Putin and can imagine many British people feeling the same way about a 'strong' British leader.
• Give up on all sorts of politics - traditional, would-be radical, right-wing, left-wing - and focus on getting by in difficult circumstances by unscrupulous means. We had a little taste of that with last year's riots. If you live or work in a particularly grim part of a city or a particularly grim little town where many young and youngish people have given up expecting to work for a living or never expected to have the opportunity, you have probably already seen how people cope - and it's often not nice. (Obviously, insofar as people go for this option, they will generate among others support for the other two ugly options.)

I can't see any sign of the left gaining (except in the sense that of course it's possible that Miliband's Labour Party might win the next election and a Miliband Labour government might be slightly more civilised than a Cameron-Clegg government).

 

[rioted]

you seem to be some sort of capitalist

Of course. With capital of?

If the working class is so downtrodden that it has to accept everything from capitalism, who is going to save it? You and your ideologically pure comrades? Or perhaps, come the crisis, the working class will suddenly realise there's more to life than the latest pair of trainers, the salt&sugar junk, and whatever spectacle is current. Or maybe they might just turn to fascism if it promises more growth, more consumables? I believe that the working class is POTENTIALLY a revolutionary class. But, in this country, only with a gargantuan effort and with a rejection of consumerist values. I accept the class as what it is, but with a desire to influence it towards more progressive endeavours. To see there is a life beyond capitalism. You, on the other hand ...

 

[butchersapron]

What priestly terror.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course. With capital of?

If the working class is so downtrodden that it has to accept everything from capitalism, who is going to save it? You and your ideologically pure comrades? Or perhaps, come the crisis, the working class will suddenly realise there's more to life than the latest pair of trainers, the salt&sugar junk, and whatever spectacle is current. Or maybe they might just turn to fascism if it promises more growth, more consumables? I believe that the working class is POTENTIALLY a revolutionary class. But, in this country, only with a gargantuan effort and with a rejection of consumerist values. I accept the class as what it is, but with a desire to influence it towards more progressive endeavours. To see there is a life beyond capitalism. You, on the other hand ...

I was referring to your penchant for saying SOCIALIST

 

[dilberto]

The problem with Marxism is that its proponents believe that it is an alternative to capitalism when in fact it is only a response to it.

Capitalist development is a process of selective change which sacrifices a surviving population for a more economically productive one producing the social and cultural changes which are common to all economically developed societies, Marxism while accepting the imperative for that change seeks to manage it in a way which essentially eliminates the social consequence of that intrinsic process of selection, therein lie the contradictions of the Marxist analysis.

Clearly there are costs and limits to economic growth but because of the subtle nature of the process of selection inherent in economic development the social effects are not predominantly economic but cultural and in that process the Marxist left are also complicit.

 

[butchersapron]

The problem with Marxism is that its proponents believe that it is an alternative to capitalism when in fact it is only a response to it.

Capitalist development is a process of selective change which sacrifices a surviving population for a more economically productive one producing the social and cultural changes which are common to all economically developed societies, Marxism while accepting the imperative for that change seeks to manage it in a way which essentially eliminates the social consequence of that intrinsic process of selection, therein lie the contradictions of the Marxist analysis.

Clearly there are costs and limits to economic growth but because of the subtle nature of the process of selection inherent in economic development the social effects are not predominantly economic but cultural and in that process the Marxist left are also complicit.

Why is it a problem that it is a response to capitalism (hint: most things post capitalism are) and why does that mean that it's not an alternative? What is an alternative? Was capitalism an alternative to feudalism?

The rest. Go away.

 

[JimW]

...

Capitalist development is a process of selective change which sacrifices a surviving population for a more economically productive one producing the social and cultural changes which are common to all economically developed societies...

This is all a bit post hoc ergo propter hoc. Capitalist development produced capitalist societies! Cheers for the insight.

 

[Lo Siento.]

People who expect the current economic problems or possible worse ones to come to generate support for the would-be revolutionary left are almost certainly going to be disappointed.

To gain support the would-be revolutionaries would have to convince people that they have a realistic and desirable alternative. Who believes that they have?

People haven't turned and aren't going to turn to Anarcho-Wotsitry (or Reheated Bolshevism) just because times are hard and they dislike the status quo.

There are various very different things they might do. Possibilities include the following three:

• Stick with the current political system but with harsher policies. 'We can't really afford the welfare state now, can we? We all have to make sacrifices for the common good.'
• Amend the existing system to make it more authoritarian. This wouldn't be fascism, just: 'We need a strong government with a strong leader in times like these.' I recently listened to a young Russian explaining why she supports Putin and can imagine many British people feeling the same way about a 'strong' British leader.
• Give up on all sorts of politics - traditional, would-be radical, right-wing, left-wing - and focus on getting by in difficult circumstances by unscrupulous means. We had a little taste of that with last year's riots. If you live or work in a particularly grim part of a city or a particularly grim little town where many young and youngish people have given up expecting to work for a living or never expected to have the opportunity, you have probably already seen how people cope - and it's often not nice. (Obviously, insofar as people go for this option, they will generate among others support for the other two ugly options.)

I can't see any sign of the left gaining (except in the sense that of course it's possible that Miliband's Labour Party might win the next election and a Miliband Labour government might be slightly more civilised than a Cameron-Clegg government).

What I would expect a worsening economic situation to do, and there's plenty of evidence that it will do, is discredit governing parties. AFAIK since 2008 no incumbent EU government has won an election. In some countries that's already leading to alarming drops in support for both sides of the traditional political elite. Now, it's not a given that such a thing will convert into increased support for the Far Left. But if it didn't it would make the UK abnormal in that respect. Now, whether such a shift would be of any use to anyone is debatable.

 

[eoin_k]

Our technological development has enabled a vast population to result. People want to have as many babies as they can, while the NHS is doing a good job keeping the existing population going for longer...