During the biggest crisis of capitalism of our generation, why is the UK anarcho-left not growing?

[LLETSA]

What I would expect a worsening economic situation to do, and there's plenty of evidence that it will do, is discredit governing parties. AFAIK since 2008 no incumbent EU government has won an election. In some countries that's already leading to alarming drops in support for both sides of the traditional political elite. Now, it's not a given that such a thing will convert into increased support for the Far Left. But if it didn't it would make the UK abnormal in that respect. Now, whether such a shift would be of any use to anyone is debatable.

The question that's been asked, however, is what does 'the left' have to put in place of capitalism. It may be true that in some countries the establishment parties will be discredited enough that more radical parties will be propelled into government, but they'll merely be in office and not in power, trying to run capitalism for the unaccountable and untouchable oligarchs who really run the show, and trying to satisfy a bitterly divided and largely hostile population.

This applies equally to the far-right.

 

[Casually Red]

Orwell once wrote, that the worst advertisement for Socialism was its adherents'', I can see what he means....

very often theyre qute noticably a bunch of wankers. In fact they wear their wankiness as a badge of honour.

 

[Lo Siento.]

The question that's been asked, however, is what does 'the left' have to put in place of capitalism. It may be true that in some countries the establishment parties will be discredited enough that more radical parties will be propelled into government, but they'll merely be in office and not in power, trying to run capitalism for the unaccountable and untouchable oligarchs who really run the show, and trying to satisfy a bitterly divided and largely hostile population.

This applies equally to the far-right.

Yes, that's what I meant by the last sentence. If you were an optimist, like me, you might hope that behind such a political shift might lie a broader range of activities, self-organised community and workplace groups, things like that, springing up, that could offer some hope for a world beyond capitalism. But you're not so...

 

[Cid]

well some socialists and anarchists believe you can do so. in an anarchist/Communist society, even if you could, it would be highly unlikely you would want to, and even if you'd would want to, there would be very little point to abusing 'power', I'm guessing.

Hmm... Not sure about that. Quite an interesting piece on ressentiment and Anarchism by Saul Newman; http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/saul-newman-anarchism-and-the-politics-of-ressentiment.pdf

Some slightly simplistic interpretations throughout (think it's intended for undergrads), but interesting.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Yes, that's what I meant by the last sentence. If you were an optimist, like me, you might hope that behind such a political shift might lie a broader range of activities, self-organised community and workplace groups, things like that, springing up, that could offer some hope for a world beyond capitalism. But you're not so...

You need more than optimisim though, as outside a few tiny scattered and disperate areas - literally a few towns and local industries across Europe that is not yet happening; even in those areas which are prepared to vote for a more radical alternative.

 

[Random]

Yes, that's what I meant by the last sentence. If you were an optimist, like me, you might hope that behind such a political shift might lie a broader range of activities, self-organised community and workplace groups, things like that, springing up, that could offer some hope for a world beyond capitalism. But you're not so...

We can hope all we like, but we still need evidence, some sign that all of this is springing up.

 

[Lo Siento.]

We can hope all we like, but we still need evidence, some sign that all of this is springing up.

You need more than optimisim though, as outside a few tiny scattered and disperate areas - literally a few towns and local industries across Europe that is not yet happening; even in those areas which are prepared to vote for a more radical alternative.

I've no answer to these, unfortunately.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

It's an important point though that optimism and pessimism are not just inert states of mind that operate independently of the way the world works. Pessimism can easily be the basis for inactivity and dispair whereas optimism can be a driving force for change, challenge and the sorts of activites that you speak about. It is tough to be an optimist in the present times but it's important to try if we take serously the idea that we are or can be active subjects not merely passive observers. Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will and all that shit.

 

[Random]

Pessimism can easily be the basis for inactivity and dispair whereas optimism can be a driving force for change, challenge and the sorts of activites that you speak about.

The opposite is also the case. "Pessimism" can help us realise what actually is possible, and what works, while "optimism" can lead us into blindly dashing our heads against a window that we think is open, like a bumble bee.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The opposite is also the case. "Pessimism" can help us realise what actually is possible, and what works, while "optimism" can lead us into blindly dashing our heads against a window that we think is open, like a bumble bee.

Yeah, it's probably a zero sum game. Nevertheless, I do think that a degree of optimism is a necessary but insufficient precondition for change. Thatcher told us that there was 'no alternative' to neo-liberalism. In order to be able to challenge neo-liberalism we have to be optimistic enough at least to believe that she was wrong as well as sober enough to realise how damn tough its gonna be find that alternative.

 

[JHE]

It's an important point though that optimism and pessimism are not just inert states of mind that operate independently of the way the world works. Pessimism can easily be the basis for inactivity and dispair whereas optimism can be a driving force for change, challenge and the sorts of activites that you speak about. It is tough to be an optimist in the present times but it's important to try if we take serously the idea that we are or can be active subjects not merely passive observers. Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will and all that shit.

I can just about see its appeal, but it's odd how popular that little slogan from Gramsci is. If evidence and reason ('intellect') justify pessimism, what is it to be optimistic? Unreasonable? A heroic act of will? A groundless (and unMarxist) voluntarism?

To have a movement that matters, you have to have some shared ideas about what the movement will achieve. For much of the 20th Century in many places, socialism (in many cases in the form of Communism, in others not) was important because many people believed there was a realistic socialist alternative. In the one place I know of where there was a serious anarchist movement, there had been several decades of successful propagation of the idea of an anarchist society. Many people believed deeply that they could bring that about.

Talking about more or better organisation in workplaces or 'communities' is all very well, but assemblies, committees and meetings will only form a radical movement if the people who compose those organisations share some radical programme.

I'm not trying to promote pessimism - though I am pretty pessimistic - I am just trying to point out that there is at the moment a striking failure among would-be revolutionaries to propagate any credible and attractive vision of a socialist future. Without that, all the activism and all the 'struggle' in the world will not have a socialist/anarchist/thingamabobby outcome.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can just about see its appeal, but it's odd how popular that little slogan from Gramsci is. If evidence and reason ('intellect') justify pessimism, what is it to be optimistic? Unreasonable? A heroic act of will? A groundless (and unMarxist) voluntarism?

To have a movement that matters, you have to have some shared ideas about what the movement will achieve. For much of the 20th Century in many places, socialism (in many cases in the form of Communism, in others not) was important because many people believed there was a realistic socialist alternative. In the one place I know of where there was a serious anarchist movement, there had been several decades of successful propagation of the idea of an anarchist society. Many people believed deeply that they could bring that about.

Talking about more or better organisation in workplaces or 'communities' is all very well, but assemblies, committees and meetings will only form a radical movement if the people who compose those organisations share some radical programme.

I'm not trying to promote pessimism - though I am pretty pessimistic - I am just trying to point out that there is at the moment a striking failure among would-be revolutionaries to propagate any credible and attractive vision of a socialist future. Without that, all the activism and all the 'struggle' in the world will not have a socialist/anarchist/thingamabobby outcome.

you're talking bollocks, though. just because one thing (eg intellect) justifies pessimism, it doesn't follow that there is no basis for optimism unless you're thick as fuck and think that 'justifies' is a synomym for 'leads to'.

 

[butchersapron]

It's not Gramsci, it's Romain Rolland.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I can just about see its appeal, but it's odd how popular that little slogan from Gramsci is. If evidence and reason ('intellect') justify pessimism, what is it to be optimistic? Unreasonable? A heroic act of will? A groundless (and unMarxist) voluntarism?

To have a movement that matters, you have to have some shared ideas about what the movement will achieve. For much of the 20th Century in many places, socialism (in many cases in the form of Communism, in others not) was important because many people believed there was a realistic socialist alternative. In the one place I know of where there was a serious anarchist movement, there had been several decades of successful propagation of the idea of an anarchist society. Many people believed deeply that they could bring that about.

Talking about more or better organisation in workplaces or 'communities' is all very well, but assemblies, committees and meetings will only form a radical movement if the people who compose those organisations share some radical programme.

I'm not trying to promote pessimism - though I am pretty pessimistic - I am just trying to point out that there is at the moment a striking failure among would-be revolutionaries to propagate any credible and attractive vision of a socialist future. Without that, all the activism and all the 'struggle' in the world will not have a socialist/anarchist/thingamabobby outcome.

I interpret the slogan as meaning that we need to start from an understanding of the world as it currently is whilst having the courage to believe that we can change it. I agree with you about the need to propagate a credible and attractive alternative though. I'm not an anarchist mainly because I have no idea what anarchism is or means. Tbh my optimism of the will only extends to some sort of revamped social democracy at the moment.

 

[Fruitloop]

Things will change anyway.

 

[treelover]

The TUC march offers the chance for radicals to become immersed in building and creating a major diverse and genuinely popular event, while arguing across their ideas and values to many many thousands of people, instead its likely there will be a 'black bloc' which differentiates itself from the multitude and probably trash a few iconic buildings, thus undermining the message of the protest and alienating the public...

 

[JHE]

Things will change anyway.

...but not necessarily in ways you want.

 

[Fruitloop]

Who knows

 

[Cid]

The opposite is also the case. "Pessimism" can help us realise what actually is possible, and what works, while "optimism" can lead us into blindly dashing our heads against a window that we think is open, like a bumble bee.

Indeed... Quite like this from Foucault (when he's discussing power, quoted in the essay I posted):

"My point is not that everything is bad, but that everything is dangerous . . . If everything is dangerous, then we always have something to do. So my position leads not to apathy but to a hyper- and pessimistic activism."

 

[Pickman's model]

The TUC march offers the chance for radicals to become immersed in building and creating a major diverse and genuinely popular event, while arguing across their ideas and values to many many thousands of people, instead its likely there will be a 'black bloc' which differentiates itself from the multitude and probably trash a few iconic buildings, thus undermining the message of the protest and alienating the public...

the first part of your post's bollocks. and i don't think the second part's much good either.

 

[treelover]

Ah, I wondered when our very own satanic urbanite would come on to demand hellfire and pour cold water on more pacific options for change..

 

[Cid]

Ah, I wondered when our very own satanic urbanite would come on to demand hellfire and pour cold water on more pacific options for change..

I think the TUC has managed that quite well without his assistance.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ah, I wondered when our very own satanic urbanite would come on to demand hellfire and pour cold water on more pacific options for change..

you think people will be chatting away on 20 october and that people's views will be changed by that?

never happened on a demonstration to a significant number of people imo. but perhaps you know better - though that would be a fucking first.

as for people having a pop at a black bloc, i haven't heard anyone outside the media say anything negative about a few shit shops getting the whacking they so richly deserved.

 

[DotCommunist]

except one tosser on here who compared it to kristellnacht and was roundly mocked

 

[ViolentPanda]

except one tosser on here who compared it to kristellnacht and was roundly mocked

Ah yes, Andrew Hertford. What a total and utter monkey-felcher!

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I'd forgotten about that div whatever happened to him?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'd forgotten about that div whatever happened to him?

Who cares?

 

[Casually Red]

We can hope all we like, but we still need evidence, some sign that all of this is springing up.

Interesting piece here about goings on in Spain. In a little town called Marinaleda

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/15/spanish-robin-hood-sanchez-gordillo

 

[Lo Siento.]

Talking about more or better organisation in workplaces or 'communities' is all very well, but assemblies, committees and meetings will only form a radical movement if the people who compose those organisations share some radical programme.

I'm not trying to promote pessimism - though I am pretty pessimistic - I am just trying to point out that there is at the moment a striking failure among would-be revolutionaries to propagate any credible and attractive vision of a socialist future. Without that, all the activism and all the 'struggle' in the world will not have a socialist/anarchist/thingamabobby outcome.

I think my problem with that is that I don't think that any programme for a credible and attractive "socialist" future could exist without that self-organisation being there to produce it. I mean it's quite easy to convince a group of workers in the abstract that they could run their workplace collectively without the bosses, another matter entirely to convince them there's a plausible situation in which they would be able to do so when they lack any kind of collective organisation whatsoever.

That kind of collective behaviour produces ideas, and not generic ones but historically contextual ones. 2012 isn't going to produce Bolsheviks or Anarcho-Syndicalists. It's got to produce something else, and that something else can only come out of organising, it can't be recycled from a previous generation...

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Interesting piece here about goings on in Spain. In a little town called Marinaleda

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/15/spanish-robin-hood-sanchez-gordillo

A brilliant sounding town, been like that since the seventies though and not grown outside the town so not really evidence of things springing up any where.