During the biggest crisis of capitalism of our generation, why is the UK anarcho-left not growing?

[ayatollah]

it does my head in that people still rally against the right or centre or left like there are only 3 options... most people as a mixture of all points of the spectrum dependant on the topic at the time. sure they may have guiding principals but these are all to often kicked to the kerb once things impact them on a personal level.

You are an intellectual giant, Garfield. Do you understand anything at all about politics ? Are you about 15 years old ? It's true that as an everyday reality most people hold to a grab bag of often mutually contradictory opinions and models of the world. But then we are all fed a jumble of contradictory shit by the mass media all the time. Its called "ideology", eg, some people who think they are "Left wing" and "for the workers" sometimes also still love the Queen, and/or are hostile to Muslims or Jews. This is not a "good thing"... it hides the true nature of society and the real interests of the 99% from people.

So we can all have a "pick'n'mix" approach to sorting out the greatest world capitalist crisis since the 1930's can we ? "Neo Liberalist policies which defend the wealth of the 1%" , seamlessly meets "socialist policies to protect the working class" . Wake up Garfield, the real world isn't actually one where you can just choose from a "menu" of politics to suit yourself, where nobody loses out .. its time to decide whose side you're on. But I think we all know which side that is don't we ?

 

[TruXta]

I don't know that many would like to be on your side anyways.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I think what Delroy wrote is very interesting, about the way people suddenly get hungry after just a little little bit of success. The UK left/working class movement has had precious few successes, and the labour movement leadership are content to always cash in their chances for change in exchange for brownie points from the establishment.

And this also links to Edie's question about a lack of a clear alternative, and the sad but not surprising fact that no one's tried to answer her. It is the duty of serious anarcho/lefts to try to propose alternatives, all the time. Not in the sense of a total blueprint for a future society, but in the sense of having lots of suggestions about how a particular situation could be improved, in the here and now. In lots of cases that's a simple as stopping damaging proposals from a company or the government, but also has to involve basic ideas about more democracy, better conditions, more wealth and more time off. During the 1970-80s there were tonnes of pamphlets written on all sorts of alternative plans, weren't there? Workers' control schemes for various failing nationalised companies, housing proposals, etc.

There's little belief in an all-embracing political alternative to capitalism, but to answer LLETSA I think that's not such a big problem. The main problem is the anarcho/left/labour movement's inability to deliver, or even often to articulate, solutions for immediate everyday problems. And I think that rather than calling people Tories we should recognise that radical political change has often happened through people trying to gain security and stability and defend their lives, rather than formally being all in favour of "radical change" and burning down the current system.

That's good.

Also worth bearing in mind that there are a lot of different ways that you can try to influence the behaviour of a system, with varying degrees of efficacy.

Here's a candidate list. I wouldn't see this as set in stone, but rather as a checklist to get people thinking about the different ways in which change can be approached from whatever context they're currently dealing with.

12. Constants, parameters, numbers (such as subsidies, taxes, standards).
11. The sizes of buffers and other stabilizing stocks, relative to their flows.
10. The structure of material stocks and flows (such as transport networks, population age structures).
9. The lengths of delays, relative to the rate of system change.
8. The strength of negative feedback loops, relative to the impacts they are trying to correct against.
7. The gain around driving positive feedback loops.
6. The structure of information flows (who does and does not have access to information).
5. The rules of the system (such as incentives, punishments, constraints).
4. The power to add, change, evolve, or self-organize system structure.
3. The goals of the system.
2. The mindset or paradigm out of which the system — its goals, structure, rules, delays, parameters — arises.
1. The power to transcend paradigms.

http://www.donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to-intervene-in-a-system/

 

[peterkro]

WTF is the "anarcho-left" is would seem to imply there is an "anarcho-right".

 

[LLETSA]

Something else that people of radical left views seem to find it difficult to come to terms with is the fact that the liberal left won the cultural (for want of a bettter term) argument hands down. As society becomes more liberal inequality continues to grow. On we march into a future defined by neo-liberal economics and social liberalism, with the fanatics on both sides not fully understanding their mutually beneficial relationship. It presents us with a society that none of the classical thinkers of socialism and anarchism could possibly have anticipated and a schizophrenic, shrinking (at least in terms of influence) radical anti-capitalist movement that tries to behave like it exists in a different kind of society altogether.

 

[cesare]

WTF is the "anarcho-left" is would seem to imply there is an "anarcho-right".

They are the yellow and black.

 

[DotCommunist]

well there are those who describe themselves as right wing anarchists- randist, frontierist scum basically

 

[Pickman's model]

They are the yellow and black.

you mean WASPs

 

[cesare]

you mean WASPs

Probably those too.

 

[peterkro]

Yes they clearly have nothing to do with Anarchism. Those that claim to be "Libertarian" also have nothing to do with libertarians.

 

[LLETSA]

Something else that people of radical left views seem to find it difficult to come to terms with is the fact that the liberal left won the cultural (for want of a bettter term) argument hands down. As society becomes more liberal inequality continues to grow. On we march into a future defined by neo-liberal economics and social liberalism, with the fanatics on both sides not fully understanding their mutually beneficial relationship. It presents us with a society that none of the classical thinkers of socialism and anarchism could possibly have anticipated and a schizophrenic, shrinking (at least in terms of influence) radical anti-capitalist movement that tries to behave like it exists in a different kind of society altogether.

Yes, yes-I'm quoting myself.

I suppose that this explains the way such a lot of people can see the problems afflicting society but reject the left's traditional solutions. People know that they're living in a society of growing economic inequality, but can see that it isn't one of growing authoritarianism. Neo-liberal economics and, more widely, mass consumerism has, hand-in-hand with liberal left cultural hegemony, given us a society where if you have enough money you can pretty much do what you want (this also explains why the mostly working class populations of the formerly Communist-ruled states rejected all 'third-road' type notions and plumped for the consumer capitalism they could see their western counterparts 'enjoyed.') Therefore, people simply see their main problem as not having enough personal income, a message reinforced constantly by an inescapable media babble (something else the pioneer thinkers of socialism and anarchism could never have envisaged.) That they never will have enough personal income doesn't really come into it.

 

[Pickman's model]

People know that they're living in a society of growing economic inequality, but can see that it isn't one of growing authoritarianism.

you do know this is bollocks, right?

 

[LLETSA]

you do know this is bollocks, right?

I can see why you would think it's bollocks*. As I said, today's 'anti-capitalists'exist in a schizophrenic world.


*And I don't mind in the least that you do-alternative viewpoints no longer have any real significance or impact anyway. The 'battle of ideas' was reduced to a largely meaningless babble a long time ago.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can see why you would think it's bollocks*. As I said, today's 'anti-capitalists'exist in a schizophrenic world.


*And I don't mind in the least that you do-alternative viewpoints no longer have any real meaning or impact anyway.

so you don't have anything to support your claim that this society isn't one of growing authoritarianism.

 

[Random]

WTF is the "anarcho-left" is would seem to imply there is an "anarcho-right".

I mean the broad UK radical political scene, defined mostly by anarchoidism and leftishism.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

You are an intellectual giant, Garfield. Do you understand anything at all about politics ? Are you about 15 years old ? It's true that as an everyday reality most people hold to a grab bag of often mutually contradictory opinions and models of the world. But then we are all fed a jumble of contradictory shit by the mass media all the time. Its called "ideology", eg, some people who think they are "Left wing" and "for the workers" sometimes also still love the Queen, and/or are hostile to Muslims or Jews. This is not a "good thing"... it hides the true nature of society and the real interests of the 99% from people.

So we can all have a "pick'n'mix" approach to sorting out the greatest world capitalist crisis since the 1930's can we ? "Neo Liberalist policies which defend the wealth of the 1%" , seamlessly meets "socialist policies to protect the working class" . Wake up Garfield, the real world isn't actually one where you can just choose from a "menu" of politics to suit yourself, where nobody loses out .. its time to decide whose side you're on. But I think we all know which side that is don't we ?

I think the time to insist that everybody line up behind a single approach is when you have a single approach that demonstrably works in the context of the present.

In the meanwhile, I would suggest that experimentation should be encouraged.

 

[ViolentPanda]

not to mention the thicker, more commie ones can always be folded into a chelsea brick to batter a cop ...

don's flame proof suit...

Millwall brick, you savage.

 

[DotCommunist]

a society that is endorsing pre emptive arrest is not becoming less authoritarian.

 

[Random]

Also worth bearing in mind that there are a lot of different ways that you can try to influence the behaviour of a system, with varying degrees of efficacy.

Here's a candidate list.

Sorry Bernie, but that list is pretty opaque to me. It needs some context, or some examples to put the flesh on the bones.

 

[8ball]

Millwall brick, you savage.

These days I would have expected a Chelsea brick to consist of three-day old foccacia.

 

[Pickman's model]

These days I would have expected a Chelsea brick to consist of three-day old foccacia.

that's a chelsea briquet to you

 

[Random]

a society that is endorsing pre emptive arrest is not becoming less authoritarian.

I think LLETSA is broadly right when he says there's a clever trick being perpetrated, a gap between perceptions and reality. More black men are being locked up and killed by the police, but at the same time the UK's olympic spectacle was aggressively "multicultural" and pretended that there were black capitalists involved in starting the industrial revolution.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Sorry Bernie, but that list is pretty opaque to me. It needs some context, or some examples to put the flesh on the bones.

Well, the link provided with it explains, provides context and gives examples.

All I can really expect people to take away from the list if they don't read the link is that there are a variety of ways to influence the behaviour of a system, something which is not apparent in the thinking behind some of the comments I'm seeing here.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think LLETSA is broadly right when he says there's a clever trick being perpetrated, a gap between perceptions and reality. More black men are being locked up and killed by the police, but at the same time the UK's olympic spectacle was aggressively "multicultural" and pretended that there were black capitalists involved in starting the industrial revolution.

yes there's a clever trick being perpetrated and yes lletsa's fallen for it

 

[DotCommunist]

I understand where he is coming from- the authoritarianism is concentrated on protecting a certain image tho. Can't really articulate this at the mo. I'm trying to say that while the irection of the state control has shifted it has not lessened. Quite the opposite.

 

[LLETSA]

so you don't have anything to support your claim that this society isn't one of growing authoritarianism.

I can accept that you could list a whole lot of stuff that represents a growing authoritarianism, but very little of it actually affects the daily lives of most people (as opposed to the niggling low-level offial finger wagging about personal behaviour that quite clearly does).

 

[LLETSA]

yes there's a clever trick being perpetrated and yes lletsa's fallen for it

Even when I've quite clearly implied that it is indeed a clever trick.

 

[ViolentPanda]

WTF is the "anarcho-left" is would seem to imply there is an "anarcho-right".

They call themselves "anarcho-capitalists" or "right-libertarians". In reality they're neither anarchist or libertarian, but more usually corporatist. Odd how they see themselves as "small state" or "no state", I've always thought, considering that at least part of thir ideology is about directing capital flows toward themselves.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can accept that you could list a whole lot of stuff that represents a growing authoritarianism, but very little of it actually affects the daily lives of most people (as opposed to the niggling low-level offial finger wagging about personal behaviour that quite clearly does).

so the millions of cctv cameras, used less to combat crime than to have a pop at incivilities, the anpr cameras used to monitor movement, the oyster cards and tracking of mobiles - none of that's authoritarian

and yet you identify 'niggling low-level offial fingerwagging about personal behaviour' and don't recognise that that sort of thing is precisely the growing authoritarianism you say is absent.

 

[ViolentPanda]

well there are those who describe themselves as right wing anarchists- randist, frontierist scum basically

"Scum" is pretty much redundant after "Randist".