Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[8ball]

V. worrying how far the term 'terrorist' has morphed - will take a look later.

Found out about a Nottingham stalwart closing this morning (many fond memories but not been in years) - bit surprised about the decision to move away from strict veg*ness by the new owners- maybe the 'flexi' thing is playing a part:

Nottingham's popular Alley Cafe Bar is to close

 

[Jeff Robinson]

V. worrying how far the term 'terrorist' has morphed - will take a look later.

Found out about a Nottingham stalwart closing this morning (many fond memories but not been in years) - bit surprised about the decision to move away from strict veg*ness by the new owners- maybe the 'flexi' thing is playing a part:

Nottingham's popular Alley Cafe Bar is to close

I have fond memories too. I remember going when it was one of the few places in Nottingham where you could get vegan options. Now you can get them pretty much everywhere. I’ve often wondered whether, paradoxically, the spread of veganism may actually in some instances lead to the decline of vegetarian/vegan restaurants that no longer serve the niche function they once were. That being said, in this instance it seems the owner decided to sell up two years ago when he took over a pub. Maybe he just wanted a change and to devote his energies elsewhere?

 

[ddraig]

I have fond memories too. I remember going when it was one of the few places in Nottingham where you could get vegan options. Now you can get them pretty much everywhere. I’ve often wondered whether, paradoxically, the spread of veganism may actually in some instances lead to the decline of vegetarian/vegan restaurants that are no longer serve the niche function they once were. That being said, in this instance it seems the owner decided to sell up two years ago when he took over a pub. Maybe he just wanted a change and to devote his energies elsewhere?

yes, the supermarkets stocking more stuff makes the independent health food shops struggle

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

yes, the supermarkets stocking more stuff makes the independent health food shops struggle

The shear number of shops selling "health" food has to be running a lot of independents out of business. There's an intersection where I live that has 5 supermarkets all within a couple of blocks of each other. All but one stocks "health food." In fact, one long-term, independent shop, a few block away, went out of business.

 

[8ball]

The shear number of shops selling "health" food has to be running a lot of independents out of business. There's an intersection where I live that has 5 supermarkets all within a couple of blocks of each other. All but one stocks "health food." In fact, one long-term, independent shop, a few block away, went out of business.

I’m always foggy on what exactly “health food” is. It feels like the distinction seems clearer in the States.

 

[ddraig]

wholefoods (not the new ish shop)

 

[8ball]

wholefoods (not the new ish shop)

That sounds to me like apples, onions etc. More greengrocer territory than e.g. Holland and Barrett or something (which is what I kind of think of).

Supermarkets have always done those. As well as greengrocers, obv (and usually cheaper with it).

 

[ddraig]

can't tell if genuine or looking for holes

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I’m always foggy on what exactly “health food” is. It feels like the distinction seems clearer in the States.

Yeah, that's why I put it in quotes. In the US, it usually means whole-grain, organic, beans, soy, and cruelty free products. It probably is easier to determine that in the US for the simple reason that most of the food is so gawdawful to begin with. (Whatever "cruelty free" means).

 

[8ball]

Yeah, that's why I put it in quotes. In the US, it usually means whole-grain, organic, beans, soy, and cruelty free products. It probably is easier to determine that in the US for the simple reason that most of the food is so gawdawful to begin with.

I nearly wondered aloud whether it meant what the rest of the world calls “food”, but felt it was a bit mean.

 

[8ball]

can't tell if genuine or looking for holes

Is it trust issues that’s really behind your vibe, then?

Maybe it will help if you grasp the nettle once in a while.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I nearly wondered aloud whether it meant what the rest of the world calls “food”, but felt it was a bit mean.

Certainly, what our great-grandparents considered "food."

 

[8ball]

Certainly, what our great-grandparents considered "food."

Indeed, isn’t that one of <name forgotten>’s rules? Not too eat too much stuff your grandparents would have recognised as food?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Indeed, isn’t that one of <name forgotten>’s rules? Not too eat too much stuff your grandparents would have recognised as food?

Michael Pollen?

He has a new book:

 

[8ball]

Michael Pollen?

He has a new book:

That’s him. Don’t know his other stuff but imo his 7 rules for eating should be taught everywhere in schools.

Edit: that book looks pretty interesting - have you read it?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

That’s him. Don’t know his other stuffy but imo his 7 rules for eating should be taught everywhere in schools.

At least in US schools, it would be a vast improvement over the corporate/farm lobby prepared propaganda that's served up now.

 

[8ball]

At least in US schools, it would be a vast improvement over the corporate/farm lobby prepared propaganda that's served up now.

I was at a school recently and it worried me how thungs might be going re: certain kinds of market and advertising access.

You probably missed the edit on my last post.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I was at a school recently and it worried me how thungs might be going re: certain kinds of market and advertising access.

You probably missed the edit on my last post.

It is disconcerting how much influence that the corporate world is attempting to have over food information. I grew up with the standard American diet that was taught in schools. I still remember the milk, corn, and pork board ads. As an aging person, I've had to deal with all sorts of medical problems related to diet.

Yes, I missed it. I haven't read his new book, but I listened to an interview with him about it. It sounds interesting.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I didn't say anything about justification. I doubt that rabbits care whether they are being killed to make stew or killed to stop them eating too many crops.

Well, the fact that apparently "all agriculture involves killing and displacing animals" is an implicit justification for animal agriculture. Plant agriculture results in several orders of magnitude fewer animal deaths than animal agriculture (that takes care of the "quantitative"). On top of that there are hefty negative side effects of animal agriculture, namely environmental and health which means that "qualitatively" it's a bit naff too. Animal ag is a lose lose.
(Vegans kill more animals – 45:31)

"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

Human activity on this beautiful planet of ours does result in environmental damage and animal deaths, that is undoubtedly true. We should strive to minimise our negative impact, and becoming a vegan is imo a good place to start.

(in b4 the plants rights activists make an appearance)

 

[veganomics]

lol @ "despised" by vegans. Not sure that there is a whole lot of "despising" going on tbh. Most people who now call themselves vegan were once meat eaters or vegetarians.

I kind of agree, I don't think there is much in the way of real "despising", although I do think that vegans feel that vegetarians are closer to meaters than they are to vegans, whereas vegetarians appear to see themselves as a non extreme "happy medium" between the two. They struggle with acknowledging the harm involved in the production of milk, eggs and animal skin products and would rather those not be mentioned.

 

[8ball]

Whereas vegans play the “la la la” game when anyone points out any harm they may be doing.

As well as fighting among themselves over trivial matters.

I think it’s time we gave the plants rights activists a go.

And the Jains.

 

[8ball]

I should also point out re: the “non extreme” thing - I’m not too sure when being “extreme” became such a big deal.

It’s hardly like reality gives a fuck about Overton windows.

 

[veganomics]

Well, the fact that apparently "all agriculture involves killing and displacing animals" is an implicit justification for animal agriculture. Plant agriculture results in several orders of magnitude fewer animal deaths than animal agriculture (that takes care of the "quantitative"). On top of that there are hefty negative side effects of animal agriculture, namely environmental and health which means that "qualitatively" it's a bit naff too. Animal ag is a lose lose.
(Vegans kill more animals – 45:31)

"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

Human activity on this beautiful planet of ours does result in environmental damage and animal deaths, that is undoubtedly true. We should strive to minimise our negative impact, and becoming a vegan is imo a good place to start.

(in b4 the plants rights activists make an appearance)

This seems to be another one of those disingenuous arguments, trying to have a dig at the arguments in favour of veganism by faking concern for small critters and plants. If they bothered with even a minimal amount of research they'd realise that MORE critters and plants are killed and more natural habitats destroyed in order to satisfy the meat eaters tastebuds.



The search for more grey areas, edge cases and red herring arguments against veganism continues.

 

[8ball]

The search for more grey areas, edge cases and red herring arguments against veganism continues.

As does the mission to keep the club small and pure.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I kind of agree, I don't think there is much in the way of real "despising", although I do think that vegans feel that vegetarians are closer to meaters than they are to vegans, whereas vegetarians appear to see themselves as a non extreme "happy medium" between the two. They struggle with acknowledging the harm involved in the production of milk, eggs and animal skin products and would rather those not be mentioned.

Well I do think that vegetarians have more in common with meat eaters than they do with vegans. There doesn't appear to be much in the way of an ethical component to vegetarianism, although some of them appear to believe that there is, perhaps due to lack of awareness. It appears to be just a diet. Omni's eat whatever they like guilt free, vegetarians abstain from flesh but aren't to bothered about dairy and eggs or leather. Whereas veganism as you well know is more than "just a diet".

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Well I do think that vegetarians have more in common with meat eaters than they do with vegans

Yeah, we’re all on the fun side of the fence, eating cheese.

 

[lazythursday]

Well I do think that vegetarians have more in common with meat eaters than they do with vegans. There doesn't appear to be much in the way of an ethical component to vegetarianism, although some of them appear to believe that there is, perhaps due to lack of awareness. It appears to be just a diet. Omni's eat whatever they like guilt free, vegetarians abstain from flesh but aren't to bothered about dairy and eggs or leather. Whereas veganism as you well know is more than "just a diet".

I don't think you can say vegetarianism is 'just a diet' as most vegetarians are doing it for ethical reasons to reduce animal suffering. Everyone can easily understand that a steak is a dead animal and a sentient being has been killed. The connection between cheese and death/cruelty is just not obvious unless you are going to actively research it. And I do think adopting a plant-based diet is often a series of steps, rather than an instant switch. Also for many people, reducing the suffering they cause is 'good enough' even though it's not removing at altogether. I guess I'm in that camp as I don't eat meat or dairy generally but I sometimes eat products that have egg as an ingredient and I occasionally eat fish. I'd like to do better, but there are practical barriers to that.

 

[8ball]

I like that vegetarians have been properly cast into the outer darkness now.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I like that vegetarians have been properly cast into the outer darkness now.

They’re just not pure enough

 

[andysays]

I like that vegetarians have been properly cast into the outer darkness now.

Might as well go back to eating meat and torturing puppies like the rest of us carnivores...