Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[ddraig]

Yes of course, many groups cement solidarity through the construction of an Other. That explains, but does not justify.

If vegans want to call them "carnists" amongst themselves, that doesn't bother me. But in a thread ostensibly addressed to non-vegans, repeated use of such terms isn't helpful in my opinion.

Nor is this habit of saying "ooh, you're 'hypocrisy hunting', therefore I can dismiss your argument a priori". Despite the fact that when I last had that canard thrown at me, I wasn't talking about hypocrisy at all, but about the fact that to other animals the human species could be considered a monstrous blight, no matter what the vast majority of humans eat.

yes humans as a species are a monstrous blight, all humans
why use that as an argument against veganism if it's not hypocrisy hunting when other humans that aren't vegan are a blight too??

e2a - why should people be helpful to you in this thread? why do you think you can try and demand that? why does it bother you so much?

 

[8ball]

It would be helpful if you pointed out which one.

I think ddraig just did.

 

[Horus Snacks]

"gas chamber" nice, evoke certain imagery without presenting an argument as to why gassing pigs is inhumane.

 

[NoXion]

yes humans as a species are a monstrous blight, all humans
why use that as an argument against veganism if it's not hypocrisy hunting when other humans that aren't vegan are a blight too??

e2a - why should people be helpful to you in this thread? why do you think you can try and demand that? why does it bother you so much?

Well that's the thing, I *don't* think humans are a monstrous blight. We're actually pretty damn successful and I wish the best for all of us.

But if you - unlike me - take the view that it's inherently wrong to kill animals for human benefit, then monstrous is what we are, and eating meat is far from the worst of it. Like I said before, but which you ignored in favour of just scoffing, war criminals don't get brownie points for refraining from eating their victims.

I'm not demanding anything. Just stating my opinion on the unhelpfulness of using snarl words. I would prefer that you did not, but since I have no power over you, it can only ever be a request.

 

[ddraig]

"gas chamber" nice, evoke certain imagery without presenting an argument as to why gassing pigs is inhumane.

That's what happens, it's another fact of the meat industry
You think gassing is humane??

 

[ddraig]

Well that's the thing, I *don't* think humans are a monstrous blight. We're actually pretty damn successful and I wish the best for all of us.

But if you - unlike me - take the view that it's inherently wrong to kill animals for human benefit, then monstrous is what we are, and eating meat is far from the worst of it. Like I said before, but which you ignored in favour of just scoffing, war criminals don't get brownie points for refraining from eating their victims.

I'm not demanding anything. Just stating my opinion on the unhelpfulness of using snarl words. I would prefer that you did not, but since I have no power over you, it can only ever be a request.

Ace logic!! Do carry on

 

[Horus Snacks]

That's what happens, it's another fact of the meat industry
You think gassing is humane??

You don't seem capable of paying attention.

I didn't dispute that gassing happens. However no argument was provided that it was inhumane, instead the reader is left to draw a fairly clumsy and obvious comparison to the holocaust. That's fallacious and pretty repellant. Pigs aren't people.

Now if you have an argument as to why this method is problematic, let's hear it. If it knocks the animal out quickly and painlessly then I don't have a problem with it.

 

[NoXion]

Ace logic!! Do carry on

That's your response? It doesn't even address anything I said.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

You don't seem capable of paying attention.

I didn't dispute that gassing happens. However no argument was provided that it was inhumane, instead the reader is left to draw a fairly clumsy and obvious comparison to the holocaust. That's fallacious and pretty repellant. Pigs aren't people.

Now if you have an argument as to why this method is problematic, let's hear it. If it knocks the animal out quickly and painlessly then I don't have a problem with it.

You might find this interesting.
The truth behind the pork we eat

 

[Horus Snacks]

You might find this interesting.
The truth behind the pork we eat

Ok, if true that's pretty gross.

I'm not convinced the answer is abandon eating meat altogether. I think removing the economic system that underpins this and other evils in the world, including human exploitation, is better.

Meat doesn't have to be made this way

 

[ddraig]

You don't seem capable of paying attention.

I didn't dispute that gassing happens. However no argument was provided that it was inhumane, instead the reader is left to draw a fairly clumsy and obvious comparison to the holocaust. That's fallacious and pretty repellant. Pigs aren't people.

Now if you have an argument as to why this method is problematic, let's hear it. If it knocks the animal out quickly and painlessly then I don't have a problem with it.

Do you consider the practice of gassing to be humane or not?

Ok, if true that's pretty gross.
I'm not convinced the answer is abandon eating meat altogether. I think removing the economic system that underpins this and other evils in the world, including human exploitation, is better.

Meat doesn't have to be made this way

why wouldn't it be true? it is and yes it is gross as is the grinding of millions of male chicks
the only/most effective way to remove the economic system that underpins it is not to buy it

 

[ddraig]

That's your response? It doesn't even address anything I said.

your previous argument was that humans kill animals by taking up space and you brought up the monstrous blight

I wasn't talking about hypocrisy at all, but about the fact that to other animals the human species could be considered a monstrous blight, no matter what the vast majority of humans eat.

your continuous whattaboutery and twisting logic is tedious and been seen before so didn't warrant a proper reply

 

[NoXion]

your previous argument was that humans kill animals by taking up space and you brought up the monstrous blight


your continuous whattaboutery and twisting logic is tedious and been seen before so didn't warrant a proper reply

It was seen before and as I have pointed out, it was ignored before with dismissals that don't even attempt to address the points made. I was hoping you might actually get around to doing that.

Funny how you keep saying I have crap arguments, yet you haven't actually demonstrated how.

 

[SpookyFrank]

You might find this interesting.
The truth behind the pork we eat

“I want to eat pork from pigs that have been reared outdoors, free to enjoy the rooting, snuffling and social interaction that are so essential to them.

"In fact, that’s the only pork I’m prepared to eat,” says Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall.

Sick bastard wants to go out of his way to ensure that happy pigs are killed for his breakfast instead of the miserable pigs who probably want to die

I bet he eats his bacon sandwich with one hand too, while wanking furiously at the thought of all that piggy happiness and contentment snuffed out in a heartbeat. I bet he spunks his load thinking about that look of betrayal and existential anguish on the pig's face as the bolt is raised to its head.

 

[Horus Snacks]

Do you consider the practice of gassing to be humane or not?

why wouldn't it be true? it is and yes it is gross as is the grinding of millions of male chicks
the only/most effective way to remove the economic system that underpins it is not to buy it

Bizarre question.

It may or may not be true. It's a report from a newspaper.

I'm not interested in not buying it. I dont want to eat a vegan diet. I doubt I could afford a vegan diet (which isn't simply food either). I want to eat meat, but the responsibility for how farmers conduct their business is down to them.

Get rid of the profit motive and things change. Me not buying meat won't make a shit of differencce

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Reasonable and benign? No, "carnist" is loaded language and you know it. If you don't, then you're a whole lot less intelligent than I thought you were. If it's not loaded, why invent a new term? What's wrong with "meat eater"?

lol @ loaded. Loaded with what? What a ridiculous objection, especially coming from someone regularly using genuinely negative and abusive language throughout this thread. Sorry I can't take your complaint seriously at all. There's nothing at all wrong with the word "carnist". I didn't invent the word, and the person that did invent it gives a perfectly good reason for it. If you don't like it then too bad.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I want to eat meat, but the responsibility for how farmers conduct their business is down to them.

That's convenient for you.

 

[lazythursday]

I doubt I could afford a vegan diet

I do find this strange (though it's a comment I've seen plenty of times) as whenever I glance at the meat in the supermarket it seems ludicrously expensive and I always wonder how people afford to be meat eaters.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Carnism (like other oppressive systems) maintains itself by both strengthening itself and weakening the system that challenges it: veganism. Carnistic defenses serve both these purposes: they validate carnism (they make eating animals seem legitimate, the “right thing to do”), and they invalidate veganism (they make not eating animals seem not legitimate, the “wrong thing to do”).

Secondary carnistic defenses are the special defenses that exist to invalidate veganism. They do so by invalidating vegans, vegan ideology (beliefs and practices), and the vegan movement as a whole. Secondary defenses hide or distort the truth about veganism so that we remain unaware of important facts, and we don’t trust the facts we are aware of.

For example, most of us are unaware of the tremendous health benefits of a vegan diet, and we still believe the myths that eating animals is necessary and nutritious. And popular (carnistic) culture often portrays vegans as biased (ignoring the fact that carnistic bias is deeply ingrained) so that we tend to distrust the information that vegans share. Vegans are also often portrayed as overly emotional (and therefore irrational), moralistic, and radical – all stereotypes that serve to discredit the vegan message. By shooting the messenger, carnism makes it less likely that the message – which directly challenges the validity of carnism – will be heard.

This might explain the reason behind the poor conduct of the carnists in this thread.

 

[NoXion]

lol @ loaded. Loaded with what? What a ridiculous objection, especially coming from someone regularly using genuinely negative and abusive language throughout this thread. Sorry I can't take your complaint seriously at all. There's nothing at all wrong with the word "carnist". I didn't invent the word, and the person that did invent it gives a perfectly good reason for it. If you don't like it then too bad.

So what is the necessity of the term?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I do find this strange (though it's a comment I've seen plenty of times) as whenever I glance at the meat in the supermarket it seems ludicrously expensive and I always wonder how people afford to be meat eaters.

It's a rather lame excuse based on the "middle class privilege" myth.

 

[Horus Snacks]

Sick bastard wants to go out of his way to ensure that happy pigs killed for his breakfast instead of the miserable pigs who probably want to die

I bet he eats his bacon sandwich with one hand too, while wanking furiously at the thought of all that piggy happiness and contentment snuffed out in a heartbeat. I bet he spunks his load thinking about that look of betrayal and existential anguish on the pig's face as the bolt is raised to its head.

Do you find sharing these weird fantasies helps you cope?

 

[Horus Snacks]

I do find this strange (though it's a comment I've seen plenty of times) as whenever I glance at the meat in the supermarket it seems ludicrously expensive and I always wonder how people afford to be meat eaters.

Things like nuts are very expensive

 

[Horus Snacks]

That's convenient for you.

Isn't it!

It's almost as if the only actions I'm responsible for are my own.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Do you find sharing these weird fantasies helps you cope?

Talking of which, would you care to share another scintillating offal-related anecdote with us?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Isn't it!

It's almost as if the only actions I'm responsible for are my own.

And not those you pay people to carry out on your behalf?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

So what is the necessity of the term?

Just think of it as an enrichment of the English vocabulary. If selfie can be added to the dictionary, then so can carnist.

What exactly is your "beef" with it, especially with you yourself have been fairly strident in your anti-vegan language.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Just think of it as an enrichment of the English vocabulary.

It's not in the English vocabulary if nobody actually says it. You can't just make shit up and then claim it's part of the language.

 

[lazythursday]

Things like nuts are very expensive

Some nuts are more expensive than others, but their price per gram doesn't seem hugely different from meat. And other sources of vegan protein eg pulses are often extremely cheap in comparison.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

It's not in the English vocabulary if nobody actually says it. You can't just make shit up and then claim it's part of the language.

See that's the thing, "lika somebooodeee" actually does say it, and I didn't just "make shit up". Besides, the wikipedia entry has 36 references so somebody must be saying it somewhere. Granted given that vegans are only a small percentage of the population it might take a bit longer than it did for "selfie" to get into the dictionary. Collins has it pending investigation. The same person managed to get Jammies, WLAN, Emoji and Endamame published so you never know.

I still don't get what the big deal is and why carnists got beef of this new fangled word. What's up with that?