'Conspiraloons' in the ascendancy?

[Jazzz]

curiouser and curiouser

And the lack of a serial number is FAR from the only mystery with this flight data recorder.

The raw data on it - which Calum Douglas managed to obtain with FOIA requests and detective work - is irreconcilable with the flight path supposedly taken by flight 77! And the FBI have no comment as to why the data doesn't match up.

Flight 77: The Flight Data Recorder Investigation Files

 

[8den]

You'd assume they matched up the serial number there, wouldn't you?

But no:

THE FBI WITHHELD THE SERIAL NUMBER of the Flight Data Recorder from the NTSB.

Of course, the number DCA01MA064 is not the serial number of the recorder: it is the document reference.

You are such a fool. The Document has the plane's tail number.

[url="http://www.911blogger.com/node/14081]Aidan Monaghan[/url]

Broken link fucknut.

Get your fucking act together.

Now, why on earth would they need to do that if there is nothing to hide?





I DO hope you are not shabbily making that up. Kindly direct us to the confirmation please.

JESUS JAZZ ARE YOU FUCKING DEFECTIVE?

You're claiming evidence was planted at the scene, DNA forensics, plane parts, phone calls were faked. But they didn't do this?

Jazzz, why wouldn't they fake the serial numbers as well.

If you were shown the serial numbers the plane parts, the logs, the body parts, you'd still claim it was faked.

Answer me this Jazzz.

AA77 took off, or maybe it didn't, and all the passengers went onto a different plane, or something. At some point another plane appeared or something. Then for someone faked/forced/bribed family members called their loved ones and pretended they were on a plane and it was hijacked or something. Then a missile/other plane/something was fired at the pentagon, or something. Immediately an elite team of special ops/ninja/faeries or something leapt into action and infront of thousands of people littered the lawn with fake evidence, body parts or something. Now the passenger had been killed/were killed/went to Bali or something, and Godzilla ate the real AA 77 or something. And they went to all this trouble, all this effort, bribed/threated FBI agents/Flight Crash investigators etc etc etc, but this entire stupidly idiotic plot is unravelling because of a FOI about serial numbers, and the fact that they went to all these other steps to fake the crash but failed to do something so elementary according to you or something.

Please explain how your awesome conspiracy theory pulled all this off, and then forgot this simple thing.

This is nearly, nearly, as fucking idiotic as your claim that the FBI don't want Bin Laden.

 

[8den]

Jazzz you dishonest little shit

Quell surprise you missed out a bit

Because of the criminal nature of the 9/11 attacks, the FBI became the lead investigative agency into the 9/11 aircraft mishaps, along with the requested aid of the NTSB. It is possible that the FBI seized FAA 9/11 aircraft records containing component serial number data for aircraft identification purposes and that the FAA no longer possesses them.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/14081

NONE of the other instances sited are crimes.

THE SERIAL NUMBERS HAVEN'T BEEN RELEASED BECAUSE ITS EVIDENCE OF A STILL ONGOING MURDER TRIAL

Fucking hell, your own link points that out.

Jazzz you don't get to paw around in the investigation of a murder trial to suit your grumpy daft evidence proof conspiracy theories.

Jesus Jazzz just fuck off.

The body parts aren't good enough, the DNA, the Flight Data, the Eyewitness accounts, all not good enough, you leap on the one piece of evidence not in the public domain and go "AH HA CONSPIRACY THEORY!"

Fucking pathetic.

 

[editor]

The raw data on it - which Calum Douglas managed to obtain with FOIA requests and detective work - is irreconcilable with the flight path supposedly taken by flight 77! And the FBI have no comment as to why the data doesn't match up.

I'm not watching some unexplained 55 minute conspiracy video, so could you tell me who this Calum Douglas is please, what his relevant qualifications are and if his findings have been independently verified and properly peer reviewed or not?

 

[8den]

And the lack of a serial number is FAR from the only mystery with this flight data recorder.

The raw data on it - which Calum Douglas managed to obtain with FOIA requests and detective work - is irreconcilable with the flight path supposedly taken by flight 77! And the FBI have no comment as to why the data doesn't match up.

Flight 77: The Flight Data Recorder Investigation Files

Oh piss off. This is achingly old debunked shit that has been gone over on this forum already

WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED TO AMERICAN AIRLINES 77, and WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED AT THE PENTAGON.

 

[Jazzz]

Really 8den, this is no good at all. You have started ranting like a lunatic with the huge font because my points have held up.

Let me remind you of the comment you thought was easily disproved:

there is not one piece of aircraft wreckage that has been formally identified as coming from flight 77 (or indeed any of the other four flights). That would include the black box and voice recorder where it seems the identifying numbers have been withheld.

And indeed this is precisely the case. You have, despite claiming that it has happened, been completely unable (so far) to provide any source for the numbers matching on the piece you found pictured on the Randi forum. Now, I really don't want to accuse you of making that up, but it's becoming quite hard.

Now of course, you've realised that the FDR which you quickly googled (from a skeptics site) doesn't actually have the serial number on it. So quickly you've changed tack to some strange excuse that they couldn't show it (unlike 30+ pages of data from it!!) because it's an 'ongoing crime investigation'.

Now let's get it straight: there is no evidence that the NTSB was ever told the serial number by the FBI. I've already showed, from their own words, that they have no documentation pertaining to the identification of any plane parts because they simply assumed that any aircraft parts discovered at the crash site were from flight 77. So, it means absolutely nothing that they put the aircraft number on the FDR document.

Now, perhaps if you will admit that my statement was entirely correct, and drop the ridiculous abuse and huge fonts, we might press on with the other stuff a bit more amicably.

 

[Jazzz]

Oh piss off. This is achingly old debunked shit that has been gone over on this forum already[/SIZE]

I say you are making this up. Link please...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=6

Though dozens of witnesses saw a Boeing 757 hit the building, conspiracy advocates insist there is evidence that a missile or a different type of plane smashed into the Pentagon

Claim: Two holes were visible in the Pentagon immediately after the attack: a 75-ft.-wide entry hole in the building's exterior wall, and a 16-ft.-wide hole in Ring C, the Pentagon's middle ring. Conspiracy theorists claim both holes are far too small to have been made by a Boeing 757. "How does a plane 125 ft. wide and 155 ft. long fit into a hole which is only 16 ft. across?" asks reopen911.org, a Web site "dedicated to discovering the bottom line truth to what really occurred on September 11, 2001."

The truth is of even less importance to French author Thierry Meyssan, whose baseless assertions are fodder for even mainstream European and Middle Eastern media. In his book The Big Lie, Meyssan concludes that the Pentagon was struck by a satellite-guided missile — part of an elaborate U.S. military coup. "This attack," he writes, "could only be committed by United States military personnel against other U.S. military personnel

FACT: When American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon's exterior wall, Ring E, it created a hole approximately 75 ft. wide, according to the ASCE Pentagon Building Performance Report. The exterior facade collapsed about 20 minutes after impact, but ASCE based its measurements of the original hole on the number of first-floor support columns that were destroyed or damaged. Computer simulations confirmed the findings.

Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."

The tidy hole in Ring C was 12 ft. wide — not 16 ft. ASCE concludes it was made by the jet's landing gear, not by the fuselage

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

same site

Claim: Conspiracy theorists insist there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon. "In reality, a Boeing 757 was never found," claims pentagonstrike.co.uk, which asks the question, "What hit the Pentagon on 9/11?

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?

 

[Jazzz]

I'm not watching some unexplained 55 minute conspiracy video, so could you tell me who this Calum Douglas is please, what his relevant qualifications are and if his findings have been independently verified and properly peer reviewed or not?

You can find the summary here in the Pilots for 9/11 Truth press release dated 26/3/07.

 

[Jazzz]

JC, the modus operandi of that Popular Mechanics article was the classic 'straw man' - i.e. to select weak arguments to knock down. There were certainly pieces of plane inside the Pentagon - that doesn't make it flight 77. If the wings didn't enter the Pentagon it's rather curious that there were no big chunks of them left outside.

Henshall writes (9/11 - The New Evidence)

"The Moussaoui trial evidence included pictures of severely charred bodies from the crash site inside the Pentagon. But from these pictures it would appear that Kilsheimer would not have been able to distinguish between uniformed Pentagon personnel inside the building and people onboard the plane"

reference for the pictures is www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html (warning likely not pleasant at all)

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Big chunks of wing? Understanding fail.

 

[claphamboy]

I say you are making this up.

Fucking hell Jazzz keeps claiming other people are making stuff up.

the modus operandi of that Popular Mechanics article was the classic 'straw man' - i.e. to select weak arguments to knock down.

Says the expert on 'straw men'.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

50 pages of regurgitated clap-trap from Urban's resident conspiriloons . . . ??

Last In.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

If the wings didn't enter the Pentagon it's rather curious that there were no big chunks of them left outside.

Not the same plane, not exactly the same walls I know, but should give you a rough idea of what happens.

 

[claphamboy]

Anyway, what does everyone think about this swine flu vaccine, I heard it's designed to cull 80% of the human race!

 

[kyser_soze]

Not the same plane, not exactly the same walls I know, but should give you a rough idea of what happens.

*Tekken V/O* CONCRETE WALL...WINS!!!!!

the modus operandi of that Popular Mechanics article was the classic 'straw man' - i.e. to select weak arguments to knock down.

Given how long you've been here, you should know that a straw man isn't about selecting a weak arguement, it's about creating a point of argument that no one else involved in the discussion has (altho it may be related to the core subject) and then knocking it down.

 

[laptop]

Jazzz you don't get to paw around in the investigation of a murder trial to suit your grumpy daft evidence proof conspiracy theories.

But for what purpose does the court system exist, if not to answer WHATEVER'S ON JAZZZ'S MIND RIGHT NOW?

 

[Sgt Howie]

I understand the urge to challenge the conspiraloons but it seems a bit pointless once they've demonstrated again and again that they've both made up their minds and are impervious to rational argument.

Re: the OP. No, conspiracy theorists might not be in the ascendency but their influence is clearly a malign one - at best offering a distracton to credible challenges to the system, at worst providing a narrative that is actively damaging, i.e. giving cover for muslims to deny Islamist responsibily for 9/11 and 7/7.

It's easy enough to say that in a secular world conspiracy theories offer something to believe in, but I'm not sure we'd see nonsense like Loose Change getting so much attention if the radical left had a clear, credible, populist message to offer a far stronger pole of attraction for those who are skeptical of authority.

 

[editor]

You can find the summary here in the Pilots for 9/11 Truth press release dated 26/3/07.

This appears to be nothing more just a short list of random, probably long retired pilots and their cohorts, none of who seem to have any relevant qualifications in analysing this data.

I asked you who Calum Douglas is, what his relevant qualifications are and if his findings have been independently verified and properly peer reviewed or not.

Could you answer that question please? I mean, you have checked any of this? And if not, why not?

 

[Blagsta]

JC, the modus operandi of that Popular Mechanics article was the classic 'straw man' - i.e. to select weak arguments to knock down.

That's not what "straw man" means.

 

[8den]

Now of course, you've realised that the FDR which you quickly googled (from a skeptics site) doesn't actually have the serial number on it.

I confused the plane's tail number with the serial number sue me. You really don't get to be on the high horse for making mistakes.

So quickly you've changed tack to some strange excuse that they couldn't show it (unlike 30+ pages of data from it!!) because it's an 'ongoing crime investigation'.

Why the fuck does the concept of "ongoing criminal investigation" not suit you fucko?

Now let's get it straight: there is no evidence that the NTSB was ever told the serial number by the FBI.

And there's no reason the FBI and NTSB have to jump through hoops to satisfy your gouhlish ludicrous conspiracy theorists.

I've already showed, from their own words, that they have no documentation pertaining to the identification of any plane parts because they simply assumed that any aircraft parts discovered at the crash site were from flight 77. So, it means absolutely nothing that they put the aircraft number on the FDR document.

Exactly what piece of evidence are you looking for. What would satisfy you. Photos of bits of the plane, with their serial numbers on them, and a log book linking them to the AA77? Is that it? Exactly?

Now, perhaps if you will admit that my statement was entirely correct, and drop the ridiculous abuse and huge fonts, we might press on with the other stuff a bit more amicably.

I'm not going to be amicable to someone as contemptible as yourself.

 

[phildwyer]

Really 8den, this is no good at all. You have started ranting like a lunatic with the huge font because my points have held up.

Actually 8den was raving like a lunatic long before that.

He has single-handedly alienated many posters from the denialist case. A cause supported so vehemently by such a crazed thicko cannot possibly be without fault. Of course one cannot evaluate arguments based solely on the intelligence of their advocates, but it's not a bad place to start.

 

[phildwyer]

That's not what "straw man" means.

I think you'll find it is.

 

[fogbat]

He's definitely getting worse

 

[8den]

Actually 8den was raving like a lunatic long before that.

He has single-handedly alienated many posters from the denialist case. A cause supported so vehemently by such a crazed thicko cannot possibly be without fault. Of course one cannot evaluate arguments based solely on the intelligence of their advocates, but it's not a bad place to start.

Yes dear. whatever.

 

[phildwyer]

THE SERIAL NUMBERS HAVEN'T BEEN RELEASED BECAUSE ITS EVIDENCE OF A STILL ONGOING MURDER TRIAL

Fucking hell, your own link points that out.

Jazzz you don't get to paw around in the investigation of a murder trial to suit your grumpy daft evidence proof conspiracy theories.

Jesus Jazzz just fuck off.

The body parts aren't good enough, the DNA, the Flight Data, the Eyewitness accounts, all not good enough, you leap on the one piece of evidence not in the public domain and go "AH HA CONSPIRACY THEORY!"

Fucking pathetic.

Worth quoting for posterity, just in case 8den sobers up long enough to attempt to edit this evidence of his disgraceful behavior and disturbed condition.

Seriously--and I speak as a denialist myself--one really does have to wonder why people like 8den get so enraged over this issue. It so clearly bespeaks some psychological imperative: 8den is not arguing anything resembling a rational case here. Am I right or wrong?

People have been very quick to say that Jazzz is fulfilling some kind of psychological need by giving credibility to conspiracy theories, but it really does seem to me that charge might far more convincingly be leveled against 8den and his ilk.

I'm not joking in the slightest, btw.

 

[8den]

I think you'll find it is.

You are immensely thick Phil.

A strawman, is greeting one argument with a fallacious misrepresentation of the other persons position, or a counter argument that bares no resemblance to the original point.

I'll wait and let you get a dictionary out to figure out what the big words mean.

 

[claphamboy]

He's definitely getting worse

Who, jazzz or phildwyer?

 

[8den]

I'm not joking in the slightest, btw.

Nope just insane.