Conspiraloon 9/11- 7/7 Truther outed as Holocaust denier

[tarannau]

oh and if people really want me why not pm? I don't usually bother checking UK politics.

Or the integrity of the Holocaust denying wankers that you seem to associate with either it seems.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I think you just turned the whole discussion upside down. BK is the one claiming what they say is "Islam", for no other reason than it is said by them.

salaam.

I don't think she is, i think she's been saying that they were doing it for Islam / in the name of Islam

What they say is no more "Islam" than a Catholic's protests that abortion is immoral is "Christianity". It makes no sense linguistically. I think we're looking at an error in translation here.

If the discussion is going to get anywhere other than exasperation i suspect a pause and a return to the first post might be in order. Ie you identify the first post you disagree with and ask BK to restate the part that you object to, that way you can see if it's jsut a linguistic nuance or you really do disagree with what's being said.

 

[fela fan]

You seem to be getting a bit worked up fela. Drop the ego and feel nothing.

Actually i'm sitting here calm as you like. Enjoying life. But i read through this thread, and it looked like a real violent expose of urban75 life. All these phone numbers and email addresses, and calls to expose the man to his employers.

As if holocaust denial is the greatest crime.

And the thread starter said a line had been crossed, and that such opinions should not be allowed, or at any rate should be effectively punished.

I wondered how this man's 'crimes' compared to the likes of blair or bush.

But i was told that was off-topic.

I do stray into politics forums you know mate. Ugly as they are.

 

[Badger Kitten]

I'm saying "their" Islam doesn't exist in Islam.




I think you just turned the whole discussion upside down. BK is the one claiming what they say is "Islam", for no other reason than it is said by them.

salaam.

Yes. That is what I said. They are wrong to say it. It is un-Islamic BUT, Aldebaran, that doesn't actually stop them saying they do it for Islam and Allah and the Ummah and that they are Muslims.

YOU are the one turning the discussion upsidedown.

Read what they said.
Read what I said.

Please. Actually read it, rather than posting based on what you think I am saying, because you are getting what has been said completely wrong.

And it's a bit frustrating trying to point this out over and over again, only for you to miss the point yet again.

 

[Dhimmi]

PWNing him seems rather overdue

Good bit of digging. Here's one I found earlier...
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7335849&postcount=70

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I don't see much point in hounding Jazzz, although it is worth a brief mention in the long list of crap sources he's relied upon. It is a trend Jazzz, one you should take note of.

 

[Aldebaran]

All I understood her to be saying was that some people described as terrorists have claimed to be committing / planning these attacks in the name of Islam. The connection between Islam and the attacks was made by these people, irrespective of their accuracy, not BK.

"Islamic terrorists" has been used as shorthand for those people popularly considered terrorists (as would I, but I'm trying to remain as objective as I possibly can here), due to their association with and claimed belief in Islam. BK, however, hasn't even remotely suggested that Islam == terrorism / murder / violence etc.

mm... Not exactly. BK claimed "they cite Islam".

Seriously, how do you think we should describe them?



Most people are perfectly aware that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is obvious that these men are Muslim and see themselves as acting in the name of Allah and Islam for the Ummah.

So - that's why they get called '' Islamic terrorists'' or ''Islamist terrorists''

Because they cite Islam as their rationale for terrorism.

It does not mean that everyone who follows Islam is a terrorist. Obviously. And nobody is saying that.

And yes, we all know that Islam does not condone this sort of thing but it doesn't actually stop these men saying it does, and acting according to their beliefs, which they say are Islamic beliefs and they consider themselves to be shahid.

On which I asked where on earth they "cite Islam", followed by more quotes by BK and in which no such "citing" appeared.

salaam.

 

[fela fan]

oh and if people really want me why not pm? I don't usually bother checking UK politics.

Oh how they prayed you would turn up on this thread mate. They've smelled prey, and they want more. Witchhunts live on even in the modern age...

 

[cesare]

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that you can't read.

Second language - might not understand

 

[butchersapron]

Will you still be counting Kollerstrom as 'a friend' from now on then Jazzz? Does this news affect how seriously you will take any of his other 'research' - or are you just going to, as you so often claim others are doing, sweep it under the carpet?

 

[smokedout]

Oh how they prayed you would turn up on this thread mate. They've smelled prey, and they want more. Witchhunts live on even in the modern age...

really stop it, you're making a tit of yourself

 

[butchersapron]

I don't see much point in hounding Jazzz, although it is worth a brief mention in the long list of crap sources he's relied upon. It is a trend Jazzz, one you should take note of.

It's worth pressing him on at it at least as this is someone he's worked closely with in real life. It fits perfectly the situation that many people warned jazz he'll end up embroiled in - it would be nice to see what he has to say now that we've been proven to be right again.

 

[fela fan]

really stop it, you're making a tit of yourself

Hardly anything for me to worry about.

Are you speaking for yourself, or for loads of others too?

 

[tarannau]

You're right of course smokedout. What Fela doesn't know is that we're all laughing at him and making puking noises from the safety of our keyboards.

With the amount of 'violence' that we're dishing out to him, the poor ridiculous idjut will be hospitalised within minutes...

 

[Badger Kitten]

Aldebaran, I will try to explain to you one last time, using an example

Man to abortion doctors held hostage at conference: '' I am going to kill you. You are wicked and evil and deserve to die. I act in Jesus name, Jesus said sinners must be punished. Jesus will reward me for my actions.''


Man to politicians held hostage at conference: '' I am going to kill you. You are wicked and evil and deserve to die. I act in Jesus name, Jesus said sinners must be punished. Jesus will reward me for my actions.''

Badger Kitten: The man threatened his victims, doctors who performed abortions, and politicians at a conference saying he would kill them in Jesus name. He has been identified as the leader of a far-right Christian terrorist organisation, who believe they must kill all sinners so that Jesus can return to reign in glory.

Theological student: But Badger Kitten! Where does it say that Jesus condones violence? This is not Christian! This is not in the New testament

Badger Kitten: I know. Of course it isnt. I am reporting what the men said. Of course it is not ''Christian'' and nothing in the New Testament or life of Jesus could be used to justify it. But the man says he is acting in Jesus name, and because of that he is described as a Christian terrorist.

Theological student: But BK is the one claiming what he does is Christian, for no other reason than he says he acts in Jesus' name.

BK: No, I'm not saying what he is doing is Christian. It is unChristian. It is completely wicked and wrong. I am saying - I am reporting - that he is saying that he acts in Jesus name - not that Christians endose such behaviour, which is blatantly un-Christian.

Can you see the difference?

How could anyone leap to the conclusion that I am saying all Christians are terrorists, or that Christianity endoses terrorism, simply by reporting about a man who said he was committing terrorism in the name of Jesus?

If you still can't see it then I give up.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Second language - might not understand

Then may I suggest he takes a bit more care before getting into an argument based on interpretation of words in that language?

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes. That is what I said. They are wrong to say it. It is un-Islamic BUT, Aldebaran, that doesn't actually stop them saying they do it for Islam and Allah and the Ummah and that they are Muslims.

That is not the point under discussion.

YOU are the one turning the discussion upsidedown.[/qutoe]
Correction: You still don't see what it is about (see my former post)

Read what they said.
Read what I said.

You said: "they cite Islam"

Which incited the discussion.

And it's a bit frustrating trying to point this out over and over again, only for you to miss the point yet again.

Same here.

salaam.

 

[cesare]

Then may I suggest he takes a bit more care before getting into an argument based on interpretation of words in that language?

Or BK can try and explain again taking that into account, which she has done.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

So your sole objection is the "they cite Islam" line?

Which incidentally i can't see as a quote, BK says they do it in the name of Islam, which they do and is irrefutable...

YOU'RE the person who dragged this off into a question of how they could possibly claim to be doing this in the name of Islam. Not BK.

 

[Aldebaran]

Aldebaran, I will try to explain to you one last time, using an example

Bad examples. You didn't add "They cite Christianity".

Which would make your "theology student" ask you the same questions I did.

salaam.

 

[chazegee]

I don't really understand the vitriol slung at people who question the standard version.

After watching the film Zeitgeist with a massive hangover, I believed every last minute of it.

Now after a nights sleep and a bit of research, I debunked a lot of it, but it showed me one thing; If a bunch of hippies with a Mac can convince me of one version, to fucking right the Government with all it has at it's disposal could lead me up the garden path...

 

[Aldebaran]

So your sole objection is the "they cite Islam" line?

Of course. Which I made clear again and again by asking proof of references again and again.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Which incidentally i can't see as a quote, BK says they do it in the name of Islam, which they do and is irrefutable...

It is what BK said they did: "cite Islam".

YOU'RE the person who dragged this off into a question of how they could possibly claim to be doing this in the name of Islam. Not BK.

Again turning things upside down.
I asked for evidence they "cited".."Islam".

salaam.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Of course. Which I made clear again and again by asking proof of references again and again.

salaam.

I edited but i'll restate:

They cite Islam as their motivation, that's what BK said:

I am sure that if you are a Muslim it is horrible to see what some people will do in the name of Islam - and they are not representative of Muslims nor are their actions halal - but nonetheless, they do state Islam as their justification.

She's reporting a fact, they cite Islam as a cause/justification. That does not mean they are referencing a part of the Koran with the proper Harvard notation, it means they are saying that it is their justification. To cite something

There can be no discussion on the line "they cite Islam". It's a fact, they do it:

In another clip, Mr Ali said: “I’m doing this . . . to punish and to humiliate the kuffar [unbeliever], to teach them a lesson that they will never forget. It’s to tell them that we Muslim people have pride, our people of Allah, the people of Islam, we are brave. We are not cowards. Enough is enough.”

1: to call upon officially or authoritatively to appear (as before a court)
2: to quote by way of example, authority, or proof <cites several noteworthy authors>
3 a: to refer to; especially : to mention formally in commendation or praise b: to name in a citation
4: to bring forward or call to another's attention especially as an example, proof, or precedent <cited the weather as a reason for canceling the picnic>

They are refering to Islam (option 3 from the list).

 

[Aldebaran]

Second language - might not understand

Well, no language, actually...
Might be people don't understand me

salaam.

 

[Badger Kitten]

mm... Not exactly. BK claimed "they cite Islam".




On which I asked where on earth they "cite Islam", followed by more quotes by BK and in which no such "citing" appeared.

salaam.

I have suggested you read the men's words for yourself.


However, you seem unable or unwilling to do so. Here are some key quotes.

"You and show more care and concern for animals than you do for the Muslim Ummah [the Islamic nation].

"Those who know me, who really know me, will know that I was the happiest person that they could ever have imagined, and those that know me know that I was over the moon that Allah has given me this opportunity to lead this blessed operation.

"Thanks to God I swear by Allah, I have the desire since the age of 15/16 to participate in Jihad in the path of Allah. I had the desire since then to punish the Kuffar for the evil they are doing.

"I had the desire since then for Jannah [paradise] for the Koran. I want to go to my prophet and his companions.

"Leave us alone. Stop meddling in our affairs and we will leave you alone.

"Otherwise expect floods of martyr operations against you and we will take our revenge and anger, ripping amongst your people and scattering the people and your body parts and your people's body parts responsible for these wars and oppression decorating the streets."

"This is from Umar Islam, the son of Islam, to the people of the world, to let you know the reasons for this action which Inshaallah [God willing] I am going to undertake. This is an obligation on me as a Muslim to wage Jihad against the Kuffar [non-believers].

"We are doing this in order to gain the pleasure of our Lord and Allah loves us to die and kill in his path.

"Anyone who tries to deny this, then read the Koran and you will not be able to deny this because this is the words in the Koran and the words of our the messenger of Allah, prayers and peace upon him, who said them and we will not leave this path until you leave our lands, until you feel what we are feeling.

"This is revenge for the actions of the USA in the Muslim lands and their accomplices such as the British and the Jews.

"This is a warning to the non-believers that if they do not leave our lands there are many more like us and many more like me ready to strike until the law of Allah is established on this earth.

"Know that without doubt your dead are in the hellfire whilst the Muslims who died due to your attacks will be in paradise.

"Martyrdom operations upon martyrdom operations will keep on raining on these Kuffar until they release you and leave our lands.

"I'm happy and I do not fear the blame of any blamer of what I'm going to do, as you call us terrorists; but you can see we don't mind that, if you call us terrorists, because we will keep on terrorising you until you learn your lesson."

"I participate within this blessed raid for - upon the enemies of blessed Islam, for several reasons.


"I, Savant, have sacrificed my life cheaply, within the sake of Allah, not to save myself from a life of trials and tribulations but to fulfill a covenant and promise with Allah the almighty, and to make it Deen [religion or way of life] reign supreme.

"As for the lovers of life and haters of death, you will class my case as a case of suicide.

"I say argue your case with the most high, and as he has said, and never think those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead, rather they are alive with their Lord and receiving provision.

"All Muslims take heed, remove yourself from the grasp of the Kuffar before you are counted as one of them. Do not be content with your council houses and businesses and western lifestyle.

"So we also say that if you are among the polytheists [polytheism is a doctrine of plurality of gods, of different gods, different religions] whilst they are attacked, we are free from you whatever may befall you.

"All Muslims feel the need to dust your feet in the training camps of Jihad where men are made."

"Cease debate and enter the battlefields seeking paradise. Mujahedeen, for years I've desired to meet you, to walk the paths you've walked, to sacrifice what you have sacrificed. Now Allah has honoured me with an invitation to his Kingdom.

"Obviously after this beautiful operation they will accuse us brothers of all sorts of things and most of the things they will accuse us of is killing for the sake of killing, hating freedom, hating the west, being fed up with our lives."

here is the transcript of what the jury heard


Do you want me to carry on citing sources?

Aldebaran, please go and look and read for yourself what the men said

and please stop misrepresenting me.

 

[Aldebaran]

There can be no discussion on the line "they cite Islam". It's a fact, they do it:

It is a fact - again - that they don't, anywhere in what is quoted.
Where on earth do you see a citation of Islam in the things you quoted?
There is none.
And none in the last list BK quoted.
Nothing.

salaam.

 

[cesare]

Well, no language, actually...
Might be people don't understand me

salaam.

True. I'm not understanding you atm, tbh.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

It is a fact - again - that they don't, anywhere in what is quoted.
Where on earth do you see a citation of Islam in the things you quoted?
There is none.

salaam.

They refer to Islam do they not? That is citing it.

 

[Badger Kitten]

I mIght as well put the whole thing up, apologies for th elength but it seems to be the only way to get it through to Aldebaran what the men are saying

"I have been educated to a high standard and had it not been Allah had blessed me with this mission, I could have lived a life of ease.

Video allegedly showing Waheed Zaman

"But instead chose to fight for the sake of Allah's Deen [his religion or way]. All of you so-called moderate Muslims, there's only one way in which to solve this crisis, the problems will not be solved by means of campaigning, big conferences, peaceful negotiations with the disbelievers.

"The only solution to this current situation of the Muslims is by fighting Jihad for the sake of Allah until the enemy is fully subdued and expelled from our lands.

"America and England have no cause for complaint for they are the ones who invaded and built bases in the land of the Muslims. They are the ones who supply weapons to the enemies of Islam, including the accursed Israelis.

"I'm warning these two nations and any other country who seeks a bad end, death and destruction will pass upon you like a tornado and you will not feel it.

"You will not feel any security or peace in your lands until you [stop] [we say] interfering in the affairs of the Muslim completely.

"I'm warning you today so tomorrow you have no cause for complaints. Remember, as you kill us, you will be killed and as you bomb us, you will be bombed."

"I will pray that Allah makes us successful in our actions, may he grant us Jannah [paradise].

"May he raise us on the Day of Judgment to be with the prophets, martyrs and people in the right path. May Allah bless the Mujahedeen with victory upon victory wherever they may be and may he focus their aim and may he make them of the patient ones.

"I have not been brainwashed. I have be

en educated to a high standard. I am old enough to make my own decisions."

TANVEER HUSSAIN: "WORTH THE PRICE"

Mr Hussain, 27, is another of the eight men said to have recorded a suicide video:

"People keep on saying, you know, that we keep on targeting innocent civilians, yeah.

Video allegedly showing Tanveer Hussain

"We're not targeting innocent civilians. We're targeting economic and military targets.

"They're the battle grounds of today so whoever steps in these trenches, they, yeah, you haven't got us to blame.

"You've got to blame yourself, and collateral damage is going to be inevitable and people are going to die, besides, you know, it's work at a price."

"You know, I wanted to do this myself. For many years, you know, I dreamt of doing this, but I didn't have no chance of doing this. I didn't have any means.

"Thank God Allah has accepted my duas [prayers] yeah, and provided a means to do this.

"You know, I only wish I could do this again, you know come back and do this again, and just do it again and again until people come to their senses and realise, you know, don't mess with the Muslims."

"Stop supporting the puppets and helping our enemies. If you do this, we're going to leave you alone. If you don't, you're going to feel the wrath of the Mujahedeen Inshaallah [God willing]."

ARAFAT WAHEED KHAN

The final defendant said to have recorded a video is Arafat Waheed Khan, 27, also of Walthamstow:

"We will rain upon you such a terror and destruction that you will never feel peace and security.

Video allegedly showing Arafat Waheed Khan

"There will be floods of martyrdom operations and bombs falling through your lands. There will be daily torment in this world and a greater torment awaiting in the hereafter.

"Now I'd like to address the bootlickers who stand shoulder to shoulder with Kuffar in condemning these beautiful operations and the Mujahedeen.

"In particular, I'd like to address the scholars to whom Allah has given knowledge which they concealed and play with to please the Kuffar, to save themselves from their disapproval.

"What a miserable deal. Pleasing the Kuffar all while just pleasing Allah. Fearing them instead of fearing Allah."

"I would like to thank Allah for giving me this opportunity to bless me with this Shahada [martyrdom].

"I ask Allah to forgive me for all my sins, to accept me as a martyr. I ask Allah to help the Mujahedeen everywhere in every way."