Conspiraloon 9/11- 7/7 Truther outed as Holocaust denier

[pk]

It's fantastic example of dynamic art though - look the at the angles and look at every anti-fascist piece they produced - the exact opposite.

I prefer mine TBH... it's the cheap crassness that only Photochops can achieve.

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.claremontmckenna.edu/hist/jpetropoulos/ironguard/holocaust.htm

Introduction to the Romania Holocaust

The tragedy of the Romanian Jewry remains one of the most neglected chapters in the history of the Holocaust. This web page will examine the suffering Romanian Jews faced during WWII to illuminate the reasons for the tragedies that individuals went through, many not surviving. The main reason used by Romanian officials when killing Jews was the belief that they would ally with the Soviet Union and become spies. Thus not only did communists have to be killed, but Jews as well. However, oppression and killing also took place for the same beliefs held by Hitler. Jews were seen as inferior creatures that polluted society, however the latter reason played a more minor role. In the Old Romania, in the territory without the lost provinces, Jews were hardly affected by the war. However, the story is quite different East of the Prut River. No country, with the exception of Germany, was involved in massacres of Jews on such a large scale. (The Destruction of the European Jews, pg. 759)

“There were also instances when the Germans actually had to step in to

restrain and slow down the pace of the Romanian measures. At such

times the Romanians were moving too fast for the German bureaucracy.”

(The Destruction of the European Jews, pg. 759)

Methods used to wipe out large number of Jews did not include gas camps or other methods use in Nazi Germany, but more primitive practices such as suffocation, starvation, and hanging. This web page will examine first the racist policies before the Holocaust started, to see how Jews were treated before the start of WWII. Then it will focus on the mass killings that took place in Iasi, Bessarabia, Bukovina and Transnistria to show why and how Jews were killed and who is to blame.

Anti-Semitism before the Holocaust

In 1939, Romania had the third largest Jewish population, after the Soviet Union and Poland. Romania had a history of anti- Semitism that was based in the Christian movement. The summer of 1940 marked the decisive turning point for fascism in Romania under Carol II. On June 21, as a preventive measure to save his throne, he announced the Party of the Nation, thus ending political pluralism. Within the one party system, the Iron Guard occupied an important role. (The Sword of the Archangel,
chapter 6)

However, the same year Carol II was forced to resign. The government, headed by Ion Gigurtu, introduced draconian anti-Jewish legislature, which was openly inspired by the Nazi Nuremberg Laws. Antonescu, which followed Gigurtu as leader of the nation, created the Legionare state in coalition with the Iron Guard. They expanded on the laws passed by Gigurtu. During 1941 and 1942, thirty-two laws, thirty-one decree-laws, and seventeen government resolutions, all sharply anti-Semitic, were published in the Official Gazette (Monitorul Oficial). Among other things, these laws forbade Jews:

-access to higher education

-the right to hold pubic office

-the possession of radios

-the right to practice legal or artistic professions

Many professional organizations excluded Jews from membership. They included:

-the Bucharest Bar

-the Romanian Opera

-the Society of Romanian Writers

-the General Assembly of Dentists

(From The Tragedy of Romanian Jewry, pg. 119)

Many Jews felt threatened by the increase of anti-Semitism and the Antonescu regime. In the fall of 1940, thousand left for ships for Palestine. Unfortunately, many ships sank, killing hundreds. (The Destruction of European Jews, pg. 762)

Why Jews were Considered a Threat to Romania

During the summer of 1940, Romania was forced to give up Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina to the USSR, Northern Transylvania to Hungary, and Southern Dobrudja to Bulgaria. This huge loss of territory was a determining factor in Romania’s alliance to the Axis Powers. The Interior Ministry ordered the removal of Jews from frontier areas as a precautionary measure against “sabotage and espionage”. Many individuals were transported in inhumane conditions from frontier districts to the interior of the country. (The Destruction of the European Jews, pg. 763) Jews were also considered “madmen” that caused syphilis, prostitution, divorce, etc. It was suggested that they should be sterilized in the name of science. For these two reasons, especially for protection during wartime, Antonescu felt Jews must be put in labor camps, ghettos, and in the worst case killed.

The Iasi Program

Iasi, before WWII, consisted of a hundred thousand individuals, half of which were Jews. The Iasi program is the most infamous in the history of the Romanian Holocaust. On June 25, 1941 (three days after the outbreak of the war) rumors circulated that Soviet parachutists landed near the city of Iasi. The army ordered a search of all Jewish homes. Many believed that Jews in Iasi were “enemy allies” of the USSR, “Bolshevik agents, and “parasites on the Romanian nation." (The Holocaust in Romania, pg. 63) Reports circulated that Jews were firing upon the soldiers, and thus the massacre stared. It is hard to establish how many were killed, but estimates are around nine hundred people. Most were shot inside the police station courtyard (around five hundred) or the movie house. Most victims were buried in mass graves dug up a few days before by some of the same Jews. Many more died on trains that carried Jews to the interior of the country because of suffocation and starvation. They had to leave regions between the Siret and the Prut River and go to the camps established at Tirgu Jiu. It is estimated that more than one thousand Jews died on these trains, suffocating to death. (Burning Ice, pg. 50) This would ensure that they were not as close to the frontier, and also that they could be more closely supervised.

Bessarabia and Bukovina

Bessarabia and Bukovina were also territories that were homes to large Jewish populations. There were 206,958 Jews living in Bessarabia and 69,144 in Bukovina. These two regions were recovered from Russia in 1941. Under Soviet Rule, which lasted from June of 1940 to June of 1941, Jews were largely forbidden to practice their religion and customs. Interrogations and deportations occurred at night, with over 4,000 deported. These, at first, included Zionist and other local leader, but then Jews of all social classes were being deported. However, with Romania’s reposition of the territory, Jews were made to suffer a much worse fate.

The year between June 1941 and June 1942 was the cruelest for the Jews living in Bessarabia and Bukovina. Jews were once again moved from small country town to large urban centers that became Jewish ghettos. The Romanians, with the aid of the Germans, occupied the territories. German mobile killing units drawn from the S.S. were commanded by Otto Ohlendorf. (Burning Ice, pg. 50) Ion Antonescu declared about the Jews in Bessarabia and Bukovina:

“I am in favor of expelling the Jews from Bessarabia and Bukovina on

the other side of the border...There is nothing for them to do here and I

don’t mind if we appear in history as barbarians…There has never been

a more suitable time in our history to get rid of the Jews, and if necessary,

you are to activate machine guns against them.” (Burning Ice, pg. 51)

Transnistria

More than 800,000 Jews were killed in Transnistria during WWII. (Burning Ice, pg. 151) In Transnistria about 200 different labor and concentration camps were set up for Jews, throughout the 118 counties in the area. About a third of the Jews at these camps died of malnutrition, and the remaining ones were killed. Jews in these camps were killed without warning and in the most brutal matter. On October 16, 1942 one hundred and fifty young women were told that they would travel to go work in German hospitals. They were brought to the forest, where they were killed and raped. Similar actions followed. The Antonescu regime, together with German troops, continued to torture Jews in Transnistria until August of 1944, even after the Soviet attach on the Romanian and German troops. Many others died in an effort to move Jews to regions further west, such as Bassarabia, Bukovina, and even Tirgu Jiu.

Conclusion

It is important to mention that Jews were not the only minorities targeted by Romanians. Gypsies were also affected by the Holocaust, with twenty six thousand deported, around seven thousand massacred, and three thousand starved to death. (The Sword of the Archangel, chapter 6) They were not viewed as enemies of Romania, but inferior creatures that had to be killed in order to keep the Romanian race pure.

However, the Romanian Jews were most affected during WWII, with the second largest number, after Germany, killed and tortured. The Antonescu regime feared that the Jews would ally with the Russians and fight against the Romania. Even before WWII, laws were passed to ensure that Jews were not treated as equal citizens, with the belief that they were inferior creatures that caused diseases and disaster. Therefore the Antonescu regime, with the Iron Guard in the few months that they were in power, felt justified in killing a large number of Jews during the Holocaust. However, few Romanians are aware of this part in its history. The genocide that occurred in Romania has to be brought to light not only the international arena, but in Romania as well. With the return to democracy in Romania, individuals need to take responsibility and speak honestly about the past. Only through an accurate examination of its history will Romania learn from the past and ensure that the tragedies that took place during WWII do not occur again.

 

[pk]

Some links on American collaboration with NAZI war criminals.

How did they get there so quick though?

Even with Red Cross passage - papers all neatly prepared thanks to the Vatican - I'm convinced it was via submarine.

In which case Nazi sympathising Peronists with the aid of the US must have been involved, as by then the Atlantic was pretty much completely dominated by Allied naval forces.
No VIIC submarine fleets could have realistically travelled non-stop, undetected, from the normal Nazi bases - Kristiansand, St Nazaire, or even alleged secret sites in Spain and Portugal, without either being given safe passage, or being blown up.

Wow, I'm a conspiranoid!

 

[Idris2002]

http://www.claremontmckenna.edu/hist/jpetropoulos/ironguard/holocaust.htm

My ex-girlfriend's family got out of Romania in 1941 - after the eleventh hour had passed in other words.

Butchers: I take it that's where the Social Democrat 3 arrows symbol comes from? I saw a webpage of the contemporary young people's socialist league in the states which used a version of it.

 

[Idris2002]

Enemies of the revolution, class enemies, it’s a fairly common justification throughout the history of communist regimes for all sorts of terrible crimes.

So in a good communist revolution and regime, how would these ‘enemies’ be dealt with?

I favour giving them balloons and a pat on the head.

As for your posts I'm intrigued at the way you seem to be saying 'don't watch that, watch this'.

Evil and appalling as Stalin's crimes were, they are in fact exceeded in their evil by the crimes of Hitler; it is under Hitler that genocide is industrialised to the point where it would have (had the Hitler regime not collapsed, largely under the pressure of the Red Army) been able to purge a Nazi ruled Europe of any and all 'racial inferiors'. . .

 

[fela fan]

Why then can you not accept why NK as well as his ideas are fair game for attack?

The man is inventing and repeating facist hate propaganda and lies.

He's also made it his business to call BK a liar, attack her personally in real life and online, because her eye witness accounts don't fit with his anti semitic lies and bullshit revisionist nazi apologist agenda.

Nick Kollerstrom deserves everything he gets.

I find it hard to disagree with this really.

 

[fela fan]

fela fan has been quite clear that he thought 911 was a CIA type thing or summat, rather than part of this (zionist = jewish) cabal running the world, tbf.

But what I don't get is the strength of feeling that goes to the point of singling BK out for some quite strong abuse on this thread for her views, to the point of wanting to censor them - whilst not reacting strongly re the holocaust denial issue and advocating that those views go unchallenged. I just don't get it

I'm afraid i went off on one. I wake up feeling somewhat contrite and stupid...!

 

[fela fan]

I'm wondering whether fela saw Jazzz getting pulled up and got annoyed about that, without actually seeing how the discussion developed from there tbh. That would make sense. And then it did all get a bit fast moving, so he could have missed a few explanatory posts. I dunno.

Add beer into the mix and that's it in a nutshell.

Clever person!

 

[pk]

I'm afraid i went off on one. I wake up feeling somewhat contrite and stupid...!

I can relate to that.

 

[dylanredefined]

How did they get there so quick though?

Even with Red Cross passage - papers all neatly prepared thanks to the Vatican - I'm convinced it was via submarine.

In which case Nazi sympathising Peronists with the aid of the US must have been involved, as by then the Atlantic was pretty much completely dominated by Allied naval forces.
No VIIC submarine fleets could have realistically travelled non-stop, undetected, from the normal Nazi bases - Kristiansand, St Nazaire, or even alleged secret sites in Spain and Portugal, without either being given safe passage, or being blown up.

Wow, I'm a conspiranoid!

Any U boat found would have been sunk the idea that the allies could gurantee safe passage to a u boat is a none starter .Wouldn't really be worth paper its written on any way .Tendency to shoot first at any submarine shaped object being pretty prevelant .

 

[Badger Kitten]

I'm afraid i went off on one. I wake up feeling somewhat contrite and stupid...!

We are now since it appears beers were the culprits

 

[Badger Kitten]

Further update: 7/7 'Truth' campaigners complaining that they are being smeared as 'conspi-racists ( whilst making no effort whatsoever to distance themselves from Kollerstrom's views might like to ponder why Kollerstrom, using his online ID of 'astro3' replies to Blairwatch with a link to the 'julyseventh.co.uk' site in his name. Three times.

Two of the 7/7 site owners, 'Kier' and Bridget Dunne also posting at the same time, also linking to the julyseventh.co.uk site, seem perfectly happy about this and of an accord with Kollerstrom in what he says
( which is about 7/7).

Now, I'm sure if you consider yourself to be a nice, well-meaning person with 'questions about 7/7' it must be horrifying to find that your movement contains people who are raging anti-Semites and holocaust-deniers, who happily count themselves as fellow travellers with you. The July 7th conspiracy theorists cry foul when antisemites in their number are pointed out, and say piteously there is no Holocaust denial on their site
( unlike the nineeleven site, which the site owner is closing because of the antisemitism and holocaust denial on it, which the moderators have belatedly decided to stop since the Kollerstrom story broke).

But the julyseventh site has private, secret forums - we don't know what goes on in there, what they discuss, and given their associations with the likes of Kollerstrom, we can only guess. So until they actually come out and say it, which they haven't done, instead preferring to go on the attack - as well as publishing foul abuse of anyone criticising conspiracy theories - I'm assuming that they have been caught with their pants down.

If the 'July 7th Truth' people want to show that they are not conspiracy theorists with Holocaust deniers, Jew-haters, and racists among them - RELEASE THE EVIDENCE! A slogan they are very familiar with. Until then....questions must remain. Without evidence, how can we trust their 'official explanation'?

 

[Badger Kitten]

Removing him from their staff page was clearly a short term holding measure. Still a mass of pages on/by him if you search their site. Be interesting to see how seriously they are taking this if and when this other material disappears. They might still want his publications for the reseach selectivity exercise.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/

They are on it.They are taking it very seriously.

They've only had one day so far to deal with this, and they have already got him off the site. They are moving at warp speed for an academic institution

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Fucking hell, I go away to work for a day and the thread has grown by about 20 pages

Glad to see that UCL seem to be taking action though, and PMSL @ the flapping over on the trooofers forums

 

[pk]

That Bridget Dunne's a nutty old harridan isnt she?



Keep her away from pet rabbits and boiling water!

 

[Badger Kitten]

Is this now the longest UK Politics thread ever?

 

[butchersapron]

Not by some distance.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I've only had a chance to skim the last 20 pages or so, so could have missed it, but am I right in thinking Jazzz is noteable only by his absance?

 

[cesare]

More or less. Once he realised that we weren't going to get sidetracked by any of his alternative conspiracy theories.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

More or less. Once he realised that we weren't going to get sidetracked by any of his alternative conspiracy theories.

Hmmm, hardly surprising

 

[Wilf]

They are on it.They are taking it very seriously.

They've only had one day so far to deal with this, and they have already got him off the site. They are moving at warp speed for an academic institution

If you search for him in their site now, still get loads of hits but they are all empty when you click

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

If you search for him in their site now, still get loads of hits but they are all empty when you click

Yay

 

[Bakunin]

If you search for him in their site now, still get loads of hits but they are all empty when you click

So he's disappeared down the academic memory hole, has he?

Good riddance to the unperson.

 

[cesare]

Interesting. I wonder whether Housmans are still stocking this:

The Case against War - The Essential Legal Inquiries, Opinions and Judgements concerning War in Iraq, (Eds) George Farebrother and Nicholas Kollerstrom (Legal Enquiry Steering Group, 2003), £5.00

http://www.housmans.com/booklists/peace/pc10.htm

'Legal Enquiry Steering Group' - what was that then, anyone know?

 

[butchersapron]

Probably part of the centre for proper intenational law or something like that with NK was central to for years. I cannot quite remember the name though.

 

[Wilf]

So he's disappeared down the academic memory hole, has he?

Good riddance to the unperson.

He's still on the Socialist Review website:
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=8871

Now they wouldn't rewrite history, would they?

 

[butchersapron]

Probably part of the centre for proper intenational law or something like that with NK was central to for years. I cannot quite remember the name though.

INSTITUTE FOR LAW AND PEACE
http://www.inlap.freeuk.com/

 

[kyser_soze]

I've only had a chance to skim the last 20 pages or so, so could have missed it, but am I right in thinking Jazzz is noteable only by his absance?

Nah, he's elsewhere with 'vaccinations are bad for your kids health' stuff in Trashypony's thread about giving trashcolt MMR.

 

[cesare]

INSTITUTE FOR LAW AND PEACE
http://www.inlap.freeuk.com/

providing useful research and information

blimey

 

[chico enrico]

nick griffin had a history degree from cambridge ffs but it didn't stop him publishing a pamphlet entitled something like "did six million really die".

for the record, i don't think nick griffin ever published that piece of trash. i can't be bothered to google it, but if my memory serves me correctly it was published by some nut called something like Richard Verrenals in the 1970s.

ETA; actually, i might be getting it mixed up with another similar waste of paper called 'the six million reconsidered' . sure someone with more time on their hands, who isn't sitting in an open office can correct me if so.