Conspiraloon 9/11- 7/7 Truther outed as Holocaust denier

[smokedout]

smokedout, I agree with a lot of what you're saying there. I'd also add into the mix that some of the reasons you outlined are why organised religion still has such power.

i dont think theres much to choose between the two tbh

 

[pk]

Aye, there'll be plenty of opinions.

But if this NK guy tonight feels any kind of remorse or sorrow, it'll still be nothing compared to the misery echoed down as a result of the events he claimed never happened.

How will he explain this to his son?

How did the holocaust victims explain what happened to their families?

No pity for NK.

 

[cesare]

i dont think theres much to choose between the two tbh

True. Religion/s, mysticism etc coming in from one side, and fascism from the other. What a heady combination that forms

 

[Lock&Light]

Do you have anything to say about what we're discussing, Lock&Light?

I'm waiting for you to settle down and listen. It'll take some time, I know.

 

[smokedout]

True. Religion/s, mysticism etc coming in from one side, and fascism from the other. What a heady combination that forms

just to add that in the US at least the cters are dominated by the christian right - pat robertson, fritz springmeiyer and william still to name a few

eta that also its no surprise that the worlds only conference on holocaust denial was held by extremist muslims in iran

 

[cesare]

just to add that in the US at least the cters are dominated by the christian right - pat robertson, fritz springmeiyer and william still to name a few

The fash are playing up to this 'Christian values' thing over here now an all

 

[pk]

I'm waiting for you to settle down and listen. It'll take some time, I know.

Dont be daft.

 

[pk]

I'm waiting for you to settle down and listen. It'll take some time, I know.

Dont be daft. Cesare did good.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

There is that as well. But there's the lending credence plus giving them a martyr aspect.

I don't subscribe to the notion that when a denier gets publicity for having been casitgated, fired or imprisoned they suddenly become a martyr.

For whom is David Irving a "martyr"? Only his fellow Jew-haters, people who've already bought his bill of goods, that's who. And even among that crew there are grudging dissenters-- people who say he caved by saying "yes, there were some gassings", people who say his estimates of Jews murdered are far too high.

No person familiar with the history of the Holocaust suddenly sat up in bed after reading of his travails and said, "by Christ, he's right-- it's all a Jewish plot, and Irving's Austrian imprisonment proves it!" Sensible people don't think that way.

To the average reader, even one only generally informed about the history of the Holocaust, such noteriety is written off as "another defamer of the dead who got his due. What's on the tube tonight?"

At least I'd hope that would be the case.

 

[Lock&Light]

Dont be daft. Cesare did good.

I don't object to that. Just his assumption that a short comment has less validity than a long drawn out testament.

 

[smokedout]

I don't subscribe to the notion that when a denier gets publicity for having been casitgated, fired or imprisoned they suddenly become a martyr.

For whom is David Irving a "martyr"? Only his fellow Jew-haters, people who've already bought his bill of goods, that's who. And even among that crew there are grudging dissenters-- people who say he caved by saying "yes, there were some gassings", people who say his estimates of Jews murdered are far too high.

but then irving did deny being a holocaust denier when the shit hit the fan

 

[cesare]

I don't subscribe to the notion that when a denier gets publicity for having been casitgated, fired or imprisoned they suddenly become a martyr.

For whom is David Irving a "martyr"? Only his fellow Jew-haters, people who've already bought his bill of goods, that's who. And even among that crew there are grudging dissenters-- people who say he caved by saying "yes, there were some gassings", people who say his estimates of Jews murdered are far too high.

No person familiar with the history of the Holocaust suddenly sat up in bed after reading of his travails and said, "by Christ, he's right-- it's all a Jewish plot, and Irving's Austrian imprisonment proves it!" Sensible people don't think that way.

To the average reader, even one only generally informed about the history of the Holocaust, such noteriety is written off as "another defamer of the dead who got his due. What's on the tube tonight?"

At least I'd hope that would be the case.

Well as I said to Butchers, I'm not that attached to whether or not NK gets publicity.

But in terms of this:

For whom is David Irving a "martyr"? Only his fellow Jew-haters, people who've already bought his bill of goods, that's who. And even among that crew there are grudging dissenters-- people who say he caved by saying "yes, there were some gassings", people who say his estimates of Jews murdered are far too high.

... there's a lot of 'Jew-haters' around. BK linked to another blog earlier re NK, but there's also an interesting piece on anti-semiticism which you can find in the right hand navigation.

 

[snadge]

eta that also its no surprise that the worlds only conference on holocaust denial was held by extremist muslims in iran

I'll mention this, there are as big a ratio of genuine people that do believe in the truth in Iran as there are in most countries on this planet, do not be fooled by the rhetoric.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

but then irving did deny being a holocaust denier when the shit hit the fan

Just another example of his cowardice, if you're talking about his mea culpa in Austria.

A far better example, of course, would be his libel suit against Deborah Lipstadt in 2000-- endevouring to stifle the freedom of speech of an academic under a judicial system that heavily favours the complaining litigant, and losing.

 

[frogwoman]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ttVnXte_wwQ



(((((nazis)))))

 

[butchersapron]

Just another example of his cowardice, if you're talking about his mea culpa in Austria.

A far better example, of course, would be his libel suit against Deborah Lipstadt in 2000-- endevouring to stifle the freedom of speech of an academic under a judicial system that heavily favours the complaining litigant, and losing.

With supporting testimony from the Rudolf mentioned in NK's posts.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

But if this NK guy tonight feels any kind of remorse or sorrow, it'll still be nothing compared to the misery echoed down as a result of the events he claimed never happened.

Quoted for truth.

How will he explain this to his son?

Kollerstrom's post on the Birdman site:

According to my teenager's homework, it seems to be Holocaust week at school again, so all the non-Jewish kids will be learning the Jewish version of it.

No, they'll be learning the history of the Holocaust as interpreted by normative historians. That "Jews" tend to concur with their account is no indication of influence or collusion, since virtually all educated people also concur, and calling it "the Jewish version of it" does nothing to undermine the veracity of the normative interpretation.

What do you do when a public institution teaches something is a fact that you believe is not a fact? Well, you can always call the teacher or write a letter, which will have no effect other than to get you a reputation as a dangerous nut.

In this instance that reputation would be enitely justified.

No school will change its policy on this because of any information you cite to them; even if they secretly agree with you, they do not have the courage.

Apparently, thousands of historians of the WWII era are similarly uncourageous. This begs the question: why would an academic, with the entire history of mankind at their disposal for choosing an area of specialty, willingly choose to specialise in a period of history that's overseen by the guardians of a massive hoax?

Almost no educated people "secretly agree" with the fantasies of deniers. It sounds to me like Kollerstrom's confusing a placatory respose letter from his kid's teacher with "secret agreement". Personally, I feel for his teenage kid mentioned in the post. It's one thing to have a world-class crackpot for a dad; but it's quite another having one's teachers, friends and classmates knowing it too.

How did the holocaust victims explain what happened to their families?

Most of them didn't have the voice to explain, having been murdered and all; but those who survived, in my experience, changed the subject as quickly as possible.

No pity for NK.

None.

 

[smokedout]

I'll mention this, there are as big a ratio of genuine people that do believe in the truth in Iran as there are in most countries on this planet, do not be fooled by the rhetoric.

im not and also aware that the decision to hold the conference was almost certainly as influenced by politics as any genuine ct-ism

but thats been brought up, just like religion, ct is also used as a political mechanism and tbh if it wasnt then nk and the like's daft ideas genuinely would be of no consequence

unfortunately history tells a different story

 

[frogwoman]

Apparently, thousands of historians of the WWII era are similarly uncourageous. This begs the question: why would an academic, with the entire history of mankind at their disposal for choosing an area of specialty, willingly choose to specialise in a period of history that's overseen by the guardians of a massive hoax?

Almost no educated people "secretly agree" with the fantasies of deniers. It sounds to me like Kollerstrom's confusing a placatory respose letter from his kid's teacher with "secret agreement". Personally, I feel for his teenage kid mentioned in the post. It's one thing to have a world-class crackpot for a dad; but it's quite another having one's teachers, friends and classmates knowing it too.

Also the teacher may have wanted to give that impression (that he "agreed") because of the things the fash are capable of doing to people who piss them off.

Im not saying Kollerstrom falls into that category but a history teacher at his school isnt likely to know that are they, and teachers get enough shit from abusive parents as it is.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

With supporting testimony from the Rudolf mentioned in NK's posts.

If Kollerstrom claims that he's a bigger fool than I thought. IIRC, at the time of the libel action, Rudolf was in hiding, in effort to avoid extradition to Germany for defamation and incitement violations. I don't think any of his work was entered as testimony.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I'll mention this, there are as big a ratio of genuine people that do believe in the truth in Iran as there are in most countries on this planet, do not be fooled by the rhetoric.

Yup. The Iranian people are more savvy than the media sometimes show. Its easy to watch film of Govt sponsored rallies of Jew hatred and get the impression that this sort of stuff is widespread from what I've read as well.

 

[butchersapron]

If Kollerstrom claims that he's a bigger fool than I thought. IIRC, at the time of the libel action, Rudolf was in hiding, in effort to avoid extradition to Germany for defamation and incitement violations. I don't think any of his work was entered as testimony.

Here

 

[frogwoman]

And actually a lot of educated people agree with holocaust denial, or at least, say they agree with it. i take issue with the idea that its only poor or uneducated people who buy into this. it isn't and that's what makes it dangerous - nick griffin had a history degree from cambridge ffs but it didn't stop him publishing a pamphlet entitled something like "did six million really die".

but i'd say none of them who had seriously studied the issue in depth really thinks it didn't happen. how could you know about all that evidence and read so many books about the holocaust and still claim it was a lie.

there is no evidence that gas chambers did not exist. there is no evidence to suggest that the einsatzgruppen were executing "criminals" and not innocent people as is claimed (and even if they were, would that make it right?)

they want it to happen again.

that much is clear from looking at any holocaust denial site, all of which, without exception, have grotesque anti-semitic imagery, veiled threats and even sometimes direct calls to violence. they dont believe the holocaust was a bad thing, they think it was good. and right and they want to do it again.

so they do in a sense deny the holocaust, seeing it as a necessary and even wonderful chapter in history, a brave fight agaisnt the forces of international jewery, rather than the mass production of murder which it clearly was.

 

[pk]

Nice one YI Otter, posting from a PDA right now so keeping it brief, thanks for adding clarification.

 

[Wilf]

Oh dear, it looks like Kollerstrom has vanished from UCL http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sts/staff.htm

4thwrite: If he's on short term project-by-project contracts, they may just fail to re-employ him and his name will disappear off the web site.

At least i've got one thing right on this thread

 

[Badger Kitten]

As I already said, that twat Kollerstrom turned up on my blog and said that the book by Rudolf was 'the modern work' on the holocaust.

He can claim not to be a Nazi all he likes, but all his sources are Nazis and far-right racist bullies.

 

[frogwoman]

http://mabister.tripod.com/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/~Patrin/holcaust.htm
www.jasenovac.org
www.pavelic-papers.com
http://www.petertatchell.net/history/survivors.htm
http://jehovah.to/gen/holocaust/index.htm

"never again" - doesn't just mean "never to jews again."

as a jew it's ironic for me that the one member of my family who was killed by the fash wasn't even jewish. he wasn't into any kind of violence, he was just a christian who believed strongly in his faith enough to believe that hitler was killing germany and that it was against god and anything that he believed in.

 

[pk]

As I already said, that twat Kollerstrom turned up on my blog and said that the book by Rudolf was 'the modern work' on the holocaust.

He can claim not to be a Nazi all he likes, but all his sources are Nazis and far-right racist bullies.

Pwned Cunt, for short.

 

[Wilf]

Beyond satire... he's a Swappie!

Kollerstrom’s outing as a Holocaust denier naturally raises questions about his political views and the extent to which they may or not indicate any personal connections to the far right, which he denies by citing his ‘political’ background as including membership of the Green Party, CND and RESPECT and, in truth, digging around in several of the usual far right online cesspits has turned up no trace of Kollerstrom or his online alias, ‘astro3′ as an active poster. That said, whatever he may believe about his own political views, his views of the Holocaust are extensively predicated on the writings of authors who are known apologists for the Nazi regime, like Irving and Zundel, and if he personally avoids the charge of fascism for lack of evidence, then the same cannot be said in regards to a charge of anti-Semitism as his response to his outing on the main ‘Truthers’ forum indicates:

From:
http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/21/sieg-heil-de-heil/

 

[8den]

I'll say through gritted teeth that caesare has a point about the medium. Conspiracy theories about JFK or the illuminati were bountiful and even gained mainstream awareness, thanks to primitive fanzines etc. 9/11 theories gained a much more mainstream appeal through "documentaries" spread via google video, and youtube (lets pause think of the irony of a documentary exposing the media and government's complicity in 911 coming across on one of the largest media organisations in the world, is a piece of base irony we can enjoy).

The fact is the 911 and the internet gave conspiracy theorists a format that they could present their arguments, (thanks to cheap video editing software, and streaming sites) easily, in a manner that is compelling to many people who didn't or don't often didn't understand the rigours and checks that go into honest documentary filmmaking.