Conspiraloon 9/11- 7/7 Truther outed as Holocaust denier
- Thread starter Badger Kitten
- Start date
Badger Kitten
oof
Yay UCL!
Yossarian
⏭️
But what I don't get is the strength of feeling that goes to the point of singling BK out for some quite strong abuse on this thread for her views, to the point of wanting to censor them - whilst not reacting strongly re the holocaust denial issue and advocating that those views go unchallenged. I just don't get it
Dunno - I'm not sure why the label "witch-hunt" is getting slapped around so liberally on this thread either, as if it applied to a "holocaust denier-hunt."
As far as I understand it, the meaning of the term, whether in Salem or in Hollywood during Mccarthyism, applies to 'witches' being hunted down and falsely accused during a time of hysteria, whereas Kollenstrom is pretty much hovering on a broomstick with a black cat on his shoulder saying "Yes, I am a witch."
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
Saved you a trip to the printers innit
Yep. I was going for the waterproof 2 colour print, so it saved a few quid too!
OK, I respected FMs request and remained out of the thread as my discussion with VP on 'conspiracy' was taking it off topic. It's now spent a few pages touching on the issue I was originally concerned with again.
Amen to that.
However....
I appreciate that you were saying this, with frustration towards Fela, however:
- "you said 9/11 was a conspiracy" - Whichever way you look at it; even accepting the 'official' account, it was a conspiracy by definition.
- "the official account a fabrication" - not necessarily a complete fabrication, but containing holes that coaches could be driven through.
- "they made it happen on purpose". I think it unlikely. It's not out of the question, yet on the other hand there are plenty of islamist nutcases out there willing to do these things. And it suited the U.S. Gov's agenda for such an event to take place. However 'Let it happen' is plausible enough given the evidence - multiple "failures" in intelligence, air defence etc etc.
- "'OBL' who was a 'CIA operative'" - Who the fuck knows. It's not as if there hasn't been a very close connection between the US intelligence services and Pakistani ISI for decades (who have been found to pass on money given to them by the U.S. to islamist groups). And there are historical links between the CIA and Mujahudeen that deserve attention and questioning.
So in questioning all of these things on perfectly reasonable grounds, do I also fit your criteria of "Truther"; to be erroneously written off for asking rational questions on topics that you regard as off limits? (Not to mention the implication - which admittedly a couple of people on this thread have specifically sought to avoid - that it also makes me a "fellow traveller" of Kollerstrom and his ilk).
Amen to that.
However....
I appreciate that you were saying this, with frustration towards Fela, however:
- "you said 9/11 was a conspiracy" - Whichever way you look at it; even accepting the 'official' account, it was a conspiracy by definition.
- "the official account a fabrication" - not necessarily a complete fabrication, but containing holes that coaches could be driven through.
- "they made it happen on purpose". I think it unlikely. It's not out of the question, yet on the other hand there are plenty of islamist nutcases out there willing to do these things. And it suited the U.S. Gov's agenda for such an event to take place. However 'Let it happen' is plausible enough given the evidence - multiple "failures" in intelligence, air defence etc etc.
- "'OBL' who was a 'CIA operative'" - Who the fuck knows. It's not as if there hasn't been a very close connection between the US intelligence services and Pakistani ISI for decades (who have been found to pass on money given to them by the U.S. to islamist groups). And there are historical links between the CIA and Mujahudeen that deserve attention and questioning.
So in questioning all of these things on perfectly reasonable grounds, do I also fit your criteria of "Truther"; to be erroneously written off for asking rational questions on topics that you regard as off limits? (Not to mention the implication - which admittedly a couple of people on this thread have specifically sought to avoid - that it also makes me a "fellow traveller" of Kollerstrom and his ilk).
Oh dear, it looks like Kollerstrom has vanished from UCL http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sts/staff.htm
Must be that there was no reason whatsoever to doubt but still... very surprizing that they reacted that quickly.
salaam.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I guess I coined the term 'witch finder general' on the thread, but I was thinking of the film tbh. And I was specifically referring to my own view of the treatment of Jazzz, well let's be clear about whether he's a holocaust denier or just a 'useful idiot' but then let's leave it at that, it ain't that important tbh.
I'm wondering whether fela saw Jazzz getting pulled up and got annoyed about that, without actually seeing how the discussion developed from there tbh. That would make sense. And then it did all get a bit fast moving, so he could have missed a few explanatory posts. I dunno.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Agree. It's the attempt to associate his "academic credentials" (whatever they might be) with his theories to make then seem more credible. He's a scientist not a historian - but his arguments seem to focus on the chemistry of Auschwitz, so it could lend spurious credibility to the claims.
The "science" of Leuchter, and later Rodolf/Scheerer/Gauss was utter bollocks. They chose to compare the amount of residual cyanide in the structures identified by witnesses as gas chambers with the amount in those identified as defumigation facilities.
Now, this is a bad choice to start with because Zyklon was used in both. Surely a better control choice would be the living quarters where no cyanide was alleged to have been used?
But much much more importantly, it takes more cyanide to kill insects than it does humans. Zyklon-B killed humans in less than an hour, but to get rid of lice they needed Zyklon-D or -E, stronger preparations designed to get rid of cold-blooded insects that are much more resistant to cell damage than humans.
In addition, the homicidal gas chambers were ventilated after an hour or so whereas the fumigation chambers had to be left for around 20 hours according to the manufacturers instructions.
IIRC Leuchter recorded his illegal sample gathering and one commentator - Pressac - noted that he appeared to be avoiding areas where residues would be most likely to collect, but gave him the benefit of the doubt given that he had to collect them covertly.
The tests have been repeated, using samples collected from both types of gas chamber and the living quarters. Both types of gas chamber have similar excessive cyanide residues, both far higher than those in the living quarters. Cyanide has also been found in the collections of hair, spectacles and other items taken from the bodies.
Even Rudolf - the only one of the bunch who is actually a competent chemist if a piss poor scientist - now admits that the chemistry alone is not enough to prove or disprove anything about what happened (probably because he realises that the chemistry corroborates the eye-witness accounts). Kollerstrom cannot possibly have applied any scientific critique to the totality of the evidence or he would be presenting more sophisticated arguments - as other deniers have attempted to do in the face of obvious defeat.
He's simply stumbled on some "evidence" that suits his worldview and, if he's even bothered to check up on it, is incapable of critiquing it honestly. Whether this is due to a psychological problem or deliberate manipulation is hard to say, but it's not relevant. The work is so shoddy you'd expect him to face disciplinary proceedings for associating it with his university regardless of the subject matter.
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
I guess it depends on the facts you choose to accept. I dont believe any Jews were conspiring in terror attacks on NYC or London.
Badger Kitten
oof
I've actually tried to STOP it going in the papers, because I felt sorry for UCL and think they needed time to sort it out - they are blameless. And I don;t think the Truthers should get publicity, or a martyr.
A storm on the internet where these these people derive their comport, support and recruit their fellow travellers, fine. But I didn't think it was fair to drag UCL into it before they had a chance to act.
Which they have done, amazingly promptly. If it does get in the papers, I hope it's good publicity for UCL for acting so fast.
Yossarian
⏭️
I guess at least any misunderstanding about what "freedom of speech" menas will have been cleared up now that Kollenstrom is apparently free to pursue Holocaust-denial full-time rather than being burdened with his affiliation with UCL.
Neither do I PK. My very deep concern however is that on these issues, and many others like them, any hope of real investigation is scotched between a rock and a hard place. The rock is all the fucktards shouting "jews/lizards/holograms did it" on the one side, the hard place is all the people immediately associating questioning and the positing of some kind of conspiracy at work with the latter "conspiraloonery".
There's simply nowhere for someone sincerely interested in getting to the truth of the matter (or as close, or approximate to the truth as possible) to go.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Nope
Yes there is but like with all things it shall take time before historians are able to research. The problem is that some people are too impatient and some among that group translate this into creating conspiracy theories that only cause further delay of serious process.
salaam.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I hope it doesn't get into the papers at all. Short term 'useful idiot' rocket martyr.
Interesting to watch this unravel though.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I hope it does. Let's see if the martyers stand up to scrutiny.
It'll be a weekend piece - my two weeks with the loons. 10 grand please.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
"Imperial Purple" gnosticism, rosicrucianism, alchemeic stuff, all that mystic stuff.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/rrm/rrm24.htm
That's true Aldebaran. However, there's also the converse situation, where the historians finally tie it all up 50 years later when all the classified/restricted documents are eventually released. By which time no one really cares, the damage is done and the people responsible can't be held to account because they're dead.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
There is that as well. But there's the lending credence plus giving them a martyr aspect.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No one gives a fuck though, a little bit of sheen that's then blow away -they're the losers.Only freaks are even interested in this area. And there's no way they'd come out on top of public exposure. All they'd walk away with is another conspiracy against them when they look stupid. So shine that light i say.
Yossarian
⏭️
If Kollerstrom has indeed been sacked by UCL, he's still as free to put forward his thoughts about the Holocaust on the Internet as he was last week, so I think it's wrong to label the targeting of his association with UCL as 'stifling free speech,' as has been done earlier on this thread.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Fair enough. I don't feel that strongly about it either way tbh. I'm more concerned with the insidious spread of this shit including the linking in with the psychedelic kids and cults such as the scientologists.
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