Conspiraloon 9/11- 7/7 Truther outed as Holocaust denier

[cesare]

fela, you've registered your disapproval now, very clearly. Have you got anything to contribute to the thread apart from that?

 

[Y_I_Otter]

Source?

I'd start with the Usenet group, alt.revisionism, where it's been a recurring theme for more than a dozen years .

How is it a 'moral equivalency fallacy'?

Link

Bringing the Ukrainian famine into a discussion of Nazi atrocities is such a fallacy, one that's irresistable to antisemites in particular because most adhere to the fiction that communism is an inherently "Jewish" movement.

Care to answer my question in 848?

I might, if I were a communist, or if this thread were about communist atrocities and denial of same.

Since it isn't, no.

 

[pk]

Fela has no point other than to derail this thread to take flak away from his conspiraloon mates.

Ignore the prick.

Has Kollerstrom been fired yet!

 

[fela fan]

fela, you've registered your disapproval now, very clearly. Have you got anything to contribute to the thread apart from that?

No.

But my contribution has its reason within this.

 

[EddyBlack]

I'd start with the Usenet group, alt.revisionism, where it's been a recurring theme for more than a dozen years .



Link

Bringing the Ukrainian famine into a discussion of Nazi atrocities is such a fallacy, one that's irresistable to antisemites in particular because most adhere to the fiction that communism is an inherently "Jewish" movement.

[/quote]Care to answer my question in 848?[/QUOTE]

I might, if I were a communist, or if this thread were about communist atrocities and denial of same.

Since it isn't, no.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the links. I don't accept that the comparison is a fallacy in the context I gave it, but I don't think anybody is interested. Guess that makes me an anti-semite in your view, such as it is. Nor are any of the communists interested in answering my question.

I don't think that we should associate everybody that questions the events of 911 with holocaust denial. I have questions and doubts about 911. I don't identify with the 911 truth truth movement or deny the holocaust.

 

[fela fan]

Fela has no point other than to derail this thread to take flak away from his conspiraloon mates.

Ignore the prick.

Has Kollerstrom been fired yet!

You fantasist.

And if he's not been fired yet, i just wonder why?

Obviously urban has less impact than it might think it has then...

 

[Badger Kitten]

You, a journalist for the british media, getting such a basic thing wrong as calling me, a complete stranger, a 'truther'...

tch tch.

How so easy to write people off with such simple-to-use labels.

You're a fucking disgrace badger kitten, and i only mean that in the context that you have the opportunity of writing in the media.

Did you not even read what i thought about kollerstrom? No, your reading skills are probably just as bad as your writing skills. Another example of such shit that readers of the british press have to put up with. I told the forum, and that includes you, that i thought his views were, shall we say, reprehensible, pathetic, terrible... i think you really should get the picture.

But, no, all you're interested in is disparaging me, just as you have been doing with this contemptible kollerstrom man.

All you're about is having a go about other people, nothing about their views.

You're a disgrace to the media, more so than the man you are attacking in this thread.

And for sure, you are no doubt a nicer person than he is. But you have fucked it all up through your attitude towards his person rather than his views.

Felafan, you said this
I have consistently been posting about Kollerstrom's views, the views held by Kollerstrom, which is what the thread is about. Have you read the thread at all?

So have other people.

Why are you getting so emotional and going off on one? Why are you attacking me in particular, when dozens of other people on this thread and on blogs have said exactly the same thing as me about Kollerstrom's views? Is there a particular reason? My job? I am a freelancer, I'm not employed by any media organisation. What has that got to do with me writing on a BB in my spare time, like hundreds of other people? Why the highly emotional personal abuse?

I'm not upset, just interested. Your reaction is very strong.

And you ARE a Truther - or a conspiracy theorist, if you prefer; you said 9/11 was a conspiracy and the official account a fabrication and they made it happen on purpose using 'OBL' who was a 'CIA operative'. Go and read your very own words

 

[Bob_the_lost]

You fantasist.

And if he's not been fired yet, i just wonder why?

Obviously urban has less impact than it might think it has then...

Yeah, cos universities are really quick when it comes to bureaucracy...

Jesus you're out of touch with reality fela, but i will refer to this post when he is disciplined later to remind you of your stupidity.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

Can anyone give any examples of PC, anti-racist holocaust denial btw? Is NK the first?

In twenty years of following this nonsense, not one (though a number have taken pains to deny their antisemitism in the "why, some of my best friends..." mode).

For the past dozen years I've levelled the same challange I did earlier in this thread: "find a single website or forum where Holocaust 'revisionism' is promoted that isn't tainted by antisemitica unrelated to the events of WWII."

So far, none have qualified.

Few deniers I've encountered online have been as easy to slam-dunk as a raving antisemite than Kollerstrom. As I mentioned earlier he's on the very fringe of the "revisionist" movenment on a number of key issues. I'd imagine he's been getting a number of emails these past few days from more than a few mainstream deniers urging him to stfu already.

 

[Badger Kitten]

You fantasist.

And if he's not been fired yet, i just wonder why?

Obviously urban has less impact than it might think it has then...

The Uni found out on Friday night and it was the first they knew of it, from everything I hear.
I hear they are on the case.
They have effectively had one working day to presumably, get the right people and have a meeting with, one assumes, the Provost and others, such as the Head of Science and Technology and the Dept of Holocaust studies, get hold of/contact Kollerstrom AND do all the other things they already had planned for today.

I think they deserve a bit of time to sort it out, don't you?.
Kollerstrom is not employed by them, he is an honourary research fellow affiliated to the department of science and technology, a position which is in their gift and also theirs to take away.

 

[ymu]

Fela, do you dispute the fact that 6 million or so Jewish, disabled and others were exterminated in death camps?

It was around 6 million Jews, 12 million total.

Just thought I’d have my two cents, I think it is a fair question. Do communists accept that communist regimes deliberately murdered millions of people in close parallel to the NAZIs.

If so how do they justify they’re continued adherence to this hateful and murderous ideology?

The British deliberately starved 20 million people to death in India. I don't justify continued adherence to that hateful and murderous ideology either.

Do we have to choose between different historical models of barbarism, or is it possible to criticise something without automatically having to support its semantic opposite?

On the one hand you have the Neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers, and their affiliates in conspiracy theorist circles. On the other you have communists who refuse to answer the question of what they would do with their enemies in a revolution. I thought that they would have had a ready answer.

So what is the alternative to repression, genocide etc. for those troublesome enemies of the revolution and class enemies. Assuming they don't think that Stalin had the right idea, I'd be interested to know. Or are they simply in denial about what their ideology invariably leads to.

We live in an economic system built on and sustained by repression and genocide. Are you in denial about that?

 

[EddyBlack]

I'd start with the Usenet group, alt.revisionism, where it's been a recurring theme for more than a dozen years .



Link

Bringing the Ukrainian famine into a discussion of Nazi atrocities is such a fallacy, one that's irresistable to antisemites in particular because most adhere to the fiction that communism is an inherently "Jewish" movement.

[/quote]Care to answer my question in 848?[/QUOTE]

I might, if I were a communist, or if this thread were about communist atrocities and denial of same.

Since it isn't, no.[/QUOTE]

So is the 'Ukranian famine' or the deliberate starvation of millions of Ukranian farmers not also an atrocity. Of course it is, but where is the real difference. Ideological state genocide. It was a deliberate famine. So unless any of the communists care to answer my questions, which they don't, I will leave it there.

 

[pk]

Though its unfair to label all 9/11 sceptics as holocaust deniers, its fair to say the bulk of their selective 'evidence' has been put together by holocaust doubters and wankers with an agenda to blame all the Jews.

Kollerstrom is just one part of it.
American Free Press (who pass off their shit as AFP file, a valid French news agency) are another.

So is David Icke.

This has been proven here time and again, so lets not waste time responding to Fela Fans whining.

 

[fela fan]

Felafan, you said this
I have consistently been posting about Kollerstrom's views, the views held by Kollerstrom, which is what the thread is about. Have you read the thread at all?

So have other people.

Why are you getting so emotional and going off on one? Why are you attacking me in particular, when dozens of other people on this thread and on blogs have said exactly the same thing as me about Kollerstrom's views? Is there a particular reason? My job? I am a freelancer, I'm not employed by any media organisation. What has that got to do with me writing on a BB in my spare time, like hundreds of other people? Why the highly emotional personal abuse?

I'm not upset, just interested. Your reaction is very strong.

And you ARE a Truther - or a conspiracy theorist, if you prefer; you said 9/11 was a conspiracy and the official account a fabrication and they made it happen on purpose using 'OBL' who was a 'CIA operative'. Go and read your very own words

The very moment you call me a 'truther', is the moment you lose the plot in your debate.

You're interested in my reaction, yet you are so emphatically sure of who i am. Don't you get it???

I have never once called 911 a conspiracy.

I'm attacking your views, not you. Unlike you. I"m not pointing any 'emotional personal abuse' at you at all. You have singularly failed to understand my posts.

That is why i'm responding to you the way i am.

 

[fela fan]

This has been proven here time and again, so lets not waste time responding to Fela Fans whining.

Even though i've accepted it all.

 

[fela fan]

Yeah, cos universities are really quick when it comes to bureaucracy...

Jesus you're out of touch with reality fela, but i will refer to this post when he is disciplined later to remind you of your stupidity.

Fine.

 

[Aldebaran]

Still think people are being a tad po faced about Kollerstrom's departure from this notion of pure, referenced social science. We all know that academia contains as many values and agendas as any other walk of life. Similarly the 'using his PhD' thing. He might not have even got the PhD at ucl and anyway, its in a different discipline.

How does that matter to you? He used his academic title (obtained in a non-related field) as a means to pose as an authority in WWI history with the sole aim to underscore and administer credibility to his historical revisionism.

There is nothing valid on or about historical revisionism. On the issue of the Holocaust such is illegal in several countries.

The fact that he is an 'academic' doesn't make this any worse than it already is - its bad enough that he lies about the death of 6 million people.

Yes it does make it much worse because ----> see comment above and all my other comments in this thread.

salaam.

 

[Badger Kitten]

The very moment you call me a 'truther', is the moment you lose the plot in your debate.

But you are. You believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy. You said it.

You're interested in my reaction, yet you are so emphatically sure of who i am. Don't you get it???

You are someone who said 9/11 was a conspiracy. You said it. You also said

I don't really know much about 7/7, but i instinctively feel that 911 was brought about by elites within the american establishment.

Okay? You said that too.

I have never once called 911 a conspiracy.

Yes, you did. Here you go,

I'm attacking your views, not you

.

You are having a go at me because of my work, you are calling me 'dangerous' and 'a fucking disgrace', you've disparaged my reading and writing skills, so please don't pretend that this is anything other than attacking me. Especially as you are only attacking me, and doing so in a very emotional way despite the fact that dozens of other people have said similar things to me.

You're a fucking disgrace badger kitten, and i only mean that in the context that you have the opportunity of writing in the media.

Did you not even read what i thought about kollerstrom? No, your reading skills are probably just as bad as your writing skills. Another example of such shit that readers of the british press have to put up with. I told the forum, and that includes you, that i thought his views were, shall we say, reprehensible, pathetic, terrible... i think you really should get the picture.

But, no, all you're interested in is disparaging me, just as you have been doing with this contemptible kollerstrom man.

All you're about is having a go about other people, nothing about their views.

Unlike you. I"m not pointing any 'emotional personal abuse' at you at all. You have singularly failed to understand my posts.

That is why i'm responding to you the way i am.

I have completely understood your posts in so far as they make any sense at all. Your claim that you are not having a go at me and that you never called 9/11 a conspiracy are total lies. Bullshit. You wrote, in answer to a thread called 'Is 9/11 a conspiracy'

In answer to the thread's question, yes it was. Who did the conspiring is what is open to question. But it was a conspiracy, that then turned into action. Theory and planning converted into practice.

The official story is a fabrication.

LIHOP is very difficult to believe, far far too many people required to be in on the act.

Staggering incompetence by the biggest empire the world's ever seen seems too far out to accept. And if it was this, then you sure would have expected a few people to have been brought to book for their irresponsibility in protecting america.

No, the most likely scenario is MIHOP. Only those members of PNAC need have been involved. A quiet word with obl or any other CIA operative out there in saudi/pakistan/afghanistan and just let them all get on with the whole plan and execution of the plan. No missiles needed, no explosives, none of all that stuff that is termed under 'conspiracy guff'.

I think you have lost the plot in the debate, not me. You're all over the place. You're very emotional.

You're best ignored from here on, I think.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

The US State Department defines ‘anti-semitism’ in terms of criticism of Israel*

He cites a web forum for this? I think he's half-truthing here, but then, that's what deniers do...

Personally I'm very pro-Semitic: Semitic races are Arab, and not more than 15% of Israeli citizens are of Semitic extraction. Do I digress?

This just underscores what a hopeless n00b this guy is. "Antisemitism" was coined in the late 19th century by the antisemite, Wilhelm Marr, as a kinder, gentler way to express Jew-hatred than the word previously used in his writings, Judenhaß. It's never meant anything else.

The Semitic origin of present-day Jews, including the Ashkanazim of Eastern Europe, is beyond question, it having been proven in study after study that the "Khazar" theory of Ashkanazi origins is false.

His contention that "15% of Israeli citizens are of Semitic extraction" is risable, since the Arab population of Israel is greater than that and even if he chooses, as many antisemites do, to ignore the Semitic origin of Ashkanazim, he apparently also discounts Sephardic Jews as "Semites".

There just aren't enough eye-rolling smilies for this idiot.

 

[8den]

Fela ; "I believe that elites in the US government conspired to cause sept 11th"

Anyone with an ounce of sanity; "So you're a conspiracy theorist?"

Fela; "Woa, woa woa, who used the words "conspiracy" man."

Fucking sniveling disingenuous drivel. Say what you like about Kollerstrom, at least he has fucking convictions and says what he believes. Fela doesn't even have that.

 

[pk]

Even though i've accepted it all.

Why then can you not accept why NK as well as his ideas are fair game for attack?

The man is inventing and repeating facist hate propaganda and lies.

He's also made it his business to call BK a liar, attack her personally in real life and online, because her eye witness accounts don't fit with his anti semitic lies and bullshit revisionist nazi apologist agenda.

Nick Kollerstrom deserves everything he gets.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

Guess that makes me an anti-semite in your view, such as it is.

Nowhere did I say that; and frankly I resent the implication. I'm usually quite careful about how I express myself, given the varying degrees of reading comprehension on these boards.

If I wasn't clear enough, please accept my apologies.

 

[frogwoman]

idiots like him are the people who allow the israeli gov't to gain such wide support for their crimes, because the holocaust deniers and anti-semites use "zionism" as a code word for "jews" when they are not the same thing at all. the people writing propaganda for israel, know this and seek to emphasise the idea that zionist and jews are the same at every opportunity. people are scared of criticising the israeli government for fear of appearing anti-semitic. whose fault is that? partly the zionists to be sure. but the zionists wouldn't have a leg to stand on if it wasn't for the fash imagining a jew around every corner.

think about it.

zionism doesnt mean zionism, as in jewish nationalism, the founding ideology of the state of israel, to these people, it means jews. and that is handing a massive propaganda coup to the Israeli government. right there. after all what better way to discredit your critics and discourage jewish people from supporting them, than by accusing them of being racists and nazis, and holocaust deniers.

in whose interests is it to claim that zionists and jews are the same, claim massive jewish/zionist conspiracies controlling the world where they dont exist? and to make it out like "zionism" is the cause of everything bad thats ever happened in the world?

only the zionist who want to terrify jews into imagining anti-semitism where it is not there, into not questioning the israeli government and even the legitimacy of the zionist enterprise, and the fash who are convinced that jews are the cause of the world's evils.

the fash aren't some people who happen to have "wacky ideas". this shit hurts real people.

 

[Yossarian]

Fela ; "I believe that elites in the US government conspired to cause sept 11th"

Anyone with an ounce of sanity; "So you're a conspiracy theorist?"

Fela; "Woa, woa woa, who used the words "conspiracy" man."

Fucking sniveling disingenuous drivel. Say what you like about Kollerstrom, at least he has fucking convictions and says what he believes. Fela doesn't even have that.

I don't think it's fair to lump fela fan in with the "Truthers" here - he believes, from what I can tell, in some collusion happening at the highest level rather than the 'remote-controlled planes hit the WTC-controlled demolition felled the towers-that was a missile hitting the Pentagon-those were computer-generated voices calling their families' theories.

I'm definitely not in agreement with him there - but it's a belief that's hard to disprove, so consequently a bit different from the "controlled demolition etc." theories that are perpetuated in the face of loads & loads of things to easily prove them wrong, and are much more akin to that fool Kollerstrom's "Holohoax" theories.

 

[kyser_soze]

WTF happened to this thread?

fela - WTF? BK has found that a member of the 7/7 'truth' movement is a Holocaust denier, and she and several other people (most of the internet it seems) have informed the university he is at of this.

I presume from all your comments about 'witchhunts' that you think it's OK for academics at globally recognised institutions to tell lies, using their academic status as a basis of credibility?

Or is it simply, as others have said, that you're getting defensive over another truther being exposed as an anti-semite?

EddyBlack: a good communist revolution that led to a society that accepted workers' ownership of MOP etc etc in the majority wouldn't need to lock anyone away - in such a society where the basis tenets of communism were accepted by the vast majorty, and that didn't have a centralised hierarchy, could happily let someone spout capitalism, theism and every other -ism you can think of and not be worried that these ideas could create a counter-rev since the vast majority in a society would just laugh at them.

 

[EddyBlack]

Nowhere did I say that; and frankly I resent the implication. I'm usually quite careful about how I express myself, given the varying degrees of reading comprehension on these boards.

If I wasn't clear enough, please accept my apologies.

Fair enough. Good to know.

I'm also glad to see that people also can aknowledge that not all sceptics of the official 911 account are henceforth deemed anti-semites or are simply parroting holocaust deniers and their anti-semitic beliefs, although there are many that clearly do.

 

[Yossarian]

He cites a web forum for this? I think he's half-truthing here, but then, that's what deniers do...



This just underscores what a hopeless n00b this guy is. "Antisemitism" was coined in the late 19th century by the antisemite, Wilhelm Marr, as a kinder, gentler way to express Jew-hatred than the word previously used in his writings, Judenhaß. It's never meant anything else.

The Semitic origin of present-day Jews, including the Ashkanazim of Eastern Europe, is beyond question, it having been proven in study after study that the "Khazar" theory of Ashkanazi origins is false.

His contention that "15% of Israeli citizens are of Semitic extraction" is risable, since the Arab population of Israel is greater than that and even if he chooses, as many antisemites do, to ignore the Semitic origin of Ashkanazim, he apparently also discounts Sephardic Jews as "Semites".

There just aren't enough eye-rolling smilies for this idiot.

Yep - 'anti-semitic' isn't a completely accurate term for Jew-hating but it's pretty much universally accepted as shorthand for such and I've never seen an utterance like "I'm not anti-semitic, Semites include..." not followed up with something about the evils of the Jews.

 

[cesare]

fela fan has been quite clear that he thought 911 was a CIA type thing or summat, rather than part of this (zionist = jewish) cabal running the world, tbf.

But what I don't get is the strength of feeling that goes to the point of singling BK out for some quite strong abuse on this thread for her views, to the point of wanting to censor them - whilst not reacting strongly re the holocaust denial issue and advocating that those views go unchallenged. I just don't get it

 

[fishfinger]

Oh dear, it looks like Kollerstrom has vanished from UCL http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sts/staff.htm

 

[EddyBlack]

WTF happened to this thread?...

EddyBlack: a good communist revolution that led to a society that accepted workers' ownership of MOP etc etc in the majority wouldn't need to lock anyone away - in such a society where the basis tenets of communism were accepted by the vast majorty, and that didn't have a centralised hierarchy, could happily let someone spout capitalism, theism and every other -ism you can think of and not be worried that these ideas could create a counter-rev since the vast majority in a society would just laugh at them.

That works up until about the time that the rulers start acting like demented bastards, and significant amounts of people become disatisfied. I'm not sure such a system could work on a democratic basis unless as you say the 'vast majority' supported a communist system.

Leaving aside the reality that significant numbers from whatever class will be implacably opposed, leading to the need to oppress and control the populace for the system to function, I guess that would be the answer to my question.

I'm not against socialist principles btw, but a true communist society would inevitably lead to oppression and violence, unless it was enthusiastcly supported by, lets say... 96.2 per cent of the total population. Otherwise you've got lots of pesky 'class enemies' on the lose.