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Conspiraloon 9/11- 7/7 Truther outed as Holocaust denier

8den said:
I'll say through gritted teeth that caesare has a point about the medium. Conspiracy theories about JFK or the illuminati were bountiful and even gained mainstream awareness, thanks to primitive fanzines etc. 9/11 theories gained a much more mainstream appeal through "documentaries" spread via google video, and youtube (lets pause think of the irony of a documentary exposing the media and government's complicity in 911 coming across on one of the largest media organisations in the world, is a piece of base irony we can enjoy).

The fact is the 911 and the internet gave conspiracy theorists a format that they could present their arguments, (thanks to cheap video editing software, and streaming sites) easily, in a manner that is compelling to many people who didn't or don't often didn't understand the rigours and checks that go into honest documentary filmmaking.
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True.
Beauty of internet... Instant results.
;)
 
Removing him from their staff page was clearly a short term holding measure. Still a mass of pages on/by him if you search their site. Be interesting to see how seriously they are taking this if and when this other material disappears. They might still want his publications for the reseach selectivity exercise.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/
 
Downplaying the Porrajmos - the trend to minimise the Romani Holocaust

Ian Hancock said:
Disqualifying Romanies as victims of genocide is Lewy’s major criterion for also excluding them from the Holocaust itself, for denying, in fact, that there was a Romani Holocaust. The battle over ownership of that word is a latter-day phenomenon, yet it has been a part of the English language for centuries, according to the Oxford English Dictionary first appearing in print around 1250 AD. Its use in a purely religious context dates from 1833, in a book by Leitch Ritchie, in which is described the fate of over a thousand people in 18th century France who were locked inside a church and burned to death at the order of King Louis VII: “Louis VII . . . once made a holocaust of thirteen hundred persons in a church (p. 104).” It has led to a distinction being made between Upper-Case Holocaust and lower-case holocaust, or to the abandonment of the term altogether for Shoah. This at least is specific to the fate of Jews, as Porrajmos (“paw-rye-mawss”) is to the fate of the Romani people.

A widespread interpretation of its meaning is found at “Holocaust” on the Anti-Defamation League’s website, where it states:

The Holocaust was the systematic persecution and annihilation of more than six million Jews as a central act of state by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Although millions of others, such as Romani, Sinti (sic), homosexuals, the disabled and political opponents of the Nazi regime were also victims of persecution and murder, only the Jews were singled out for total extermination (ADL, 2000).

The second aspect of the book-and the one which concerns me most-is the tone in which it is written. This is a book about Romani people written by someone who does not know any Romani people, and who admits to deliberately not seeking their input in its compilation. No Romanies are credited in the acknowledgments. Lewy has no expertise in Romani Studies, and apart from a couple of recent articles excerpted from the same book, he has never published anything on Romanies before this. It reflects one facet of a disturbing trend which seems to be emerging in Holocaust studies, most recently expressed on an Australian-based Holocaust website which proclaims that “just mentioning Gypsies in the same breath as the Jewish victims is an insult to their memory! (David, 2000).” This statement differs hardly at all from that made by the Darmstadt city mayor who, in an address to the municipal Sinti and Roma Council, said that their request for recognition “insults the honor of the memory of the Holocaust victims” by aspiring to be associated with them (Anon., 1986), evidence that this kind of antigypsyism extends well beyond the confines of Holocaust scholarship. The motive for writing this book, therefore, was evidently not to add to our knowledge of Roma, but to support the Jewish “uniquist” position, Lewy’s swan-song upon his retirement from The University of Massachusetts.

His section on history is flawed and anemic; most of it relies heavily on Fonseca’s journalistic, non-academic book Bury Me Standing. He accepts negative stereotypes without comment, quoting e.g. Martin Block, whose 1936 book was commissioned by the Nazi Party and served as one of their fundamental guides to the “Zigeuner”, and who says Romanies “are masters in the art of lying." Having made the point once, Lewy then reinforces Block’s statement in a footnote by repeating Fonseca’s similar racist observation that “Gypsies lie. They lie a lot. More often and more inventively than other people.” He unnecessarily quotes the editor of a Roman Catholic magazine who recently wrote that Romanies are “with exceptions, a lazy, lying, thieving and extraordinarily filthy people . . . exceedingly disagreeable people to be around.”
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They're only trying to get the truth out. :mad:

Bear in mind btw that these aren't typical fash, but mainstream Jewish holocaust scholars - some of them work for the ADL :(

Hancock goes on to state:

Accepting uncritically the opinions of prejudiced non-Romani authors and presenting their statements as fact, and repeating undefended racist venom while calling it merely “intemperate,” suggests that to Lewy such statements are not questionable, and that we are not real people at all, but simply subjects in books written by other non-Romanies. We are not real people with real sensitivities and real aspirations in the real world, and we were not real people in the Holocaust. All in all, in his opening chapter Lewy seems to take delight in documenting the “nasty” aspects of Romanies; he doesn’t seem to like us very much at all. In a blame-the-victim statement (p. ll) he says “prejudice alone, I submit, is not sufficient explanation for the hostility directed at the Gypsies . . . certain characteristics of Gypsy life tend to reinforce or even create hostility.”. He even puts himself in charge of what we should be called, maintaining that “in fact there is nothing pejorative, per se, about the word ‘Zigeuner’” (p. ix). One suggestion I did make before returning the original manuscript to OUP was that the author remove the word “mysterious” in his description of us from his text.

There are dozens of examples of this kind of insensitivity here and in Lewy’s other writings. He repeats for example Yehuda Bauer’s viciously insulting statement that my people were nothing more than a “minor irritant” as far as the Nazis were concerned. Minor irritants are not called Zigeunerplage or Zigeunerbedrohung or Zigeunergeschmeiss as the Nazis referred to us (“Gypsy plague,” “Gypsy menace,” “Gypsy scum”). The Bureau of Gypsy Affairs was not moved from Munich to Hitler’s capital in Berlin in 1936 simply so that the Nazis could keep a close eye on a “minor irritant.” In a paper presented at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum’s symposium on the Romani Holocaust in September, 2000, he stated that “Gypsies were fortunate in not being the chosen victims of the Holocaust,” heedless of the gross insensitivity evident in using a word such as “fortunate” in the context of the Holocaust.

In the same paper Lewy maintains that Romanies weren’t sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau to be killed, that other inmates “envied” them there, and that in some camps, they were merely murdered for carrying disease or for taking up space. Throughout his writing, Lewy tempers his prejudices with the requisite sympathetic lip-service presumably lest he be accused of bias, yet he includes no discussion of the ongoing persecution of Romanies since 1945, of how there was no representation at the Nuremberg Trials, or no war crimes reparations forthcoming, of how neo-Nazi violence is directed-today-mainly at the Romani people, of how The New York Times and CNN have both called Romanies “the most persecuted in Europe today.”

As I write, the Greek government is already systematically removing Romanies by force and demolishing their homes at the site of the next Olympic Games, just as Hitler did in Berlin in 1936 and the Spanish government did in 1992 in Barcelona. Romani women were being involuntarily sterilized in Slovakia into the 1980s. These issues, in the context of what the Holocaust must teach us, mean nothing to Mr. Lewy, and it is because he can feel no empathy for a people who remain complete strangers to him.
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Never forget.
 
butchersapron said:
Here
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Ach, yes. The appeal fiasco. In the sense that Irving did initially profer Rudolf as an authority, yes it was technically entered as evidence. But wiser heads obviously prevailed and it was withdrawn. I can well imagine the conversation between Irving and his attorney:

"I'm sorry Mr. Irving, but the Rudolf report is rife with credibility issues the court is bound to raise. It isn't helpful in the slightest."

"Bugger! Alright then, pull it. But I don't have to like it!"

End of.
 
Shirley Miller said:
The new bride in this old ballad runs off with some Gypsies and refuses to return to her husband when he finds her in the Gypsy camp. She left to be free from her stuffy new husband and the trials of running a household and staff. In doing so, she also left her comfortable life--silk dresses, a fine home, money, servants--left it all to live the carefree Gypsy life. No doubt she could picture the Gypsies dancing around the campfire, their golden earrings flashing in the firelight, the Gypsy violins urging the dancers on--a romantic life. A life more exciting than hers, she must have thought.

However, would she have chosen the Gypsy life had she known that such a life held hardship and persecution that reached a new high under Hitler? The Gypsies unknowingly traveled a road that led to Porrajmos, the Gypsy Holocaust. The human tragedy of Porrajmos (a Romani word meaning "the Devouring") is slowly reaching the public eye.

Internationally known Rom (Gypsy) activist, Professor Ian Hancock of the University of Texas, explains the difficulty of obtaining information about Gypsies and the Holocaust: "Holocaust scholarship over the past forty to fifty years has been conducted primarily by Jewish researchers, so it is almost entirely about Jews, as is natural. The Gypsies lacked educated people to write. Also, people who have gone through it don't want to remember. It's too painful." Fortunately, through Dr. Hancock's efforts and that of others, the story of the Porrajmos is finally being revealed.

When and where did the journey down this tragic road begin? No exact date can be set, but approximately 1,000 years ago, the ancestors of today's Roma (Gypsies is a pejorative term) began their long trek. Coming out of India, they traveled westward, arriving in Southeastern Europe around 1300. Initially, the Roma were accepted because of their skills as craftsmen, horsemen, and entertainers. Still, their language (Romanes), appearance, and customs set them apart socially from the non-Roma, or gadje. They could claim no land in Europe, they traveled the countryside, they were much darker than the locals, and they did not know where their homeland was. It suited some Roma to say they came from Egypt--hence, perhaps, the name Gypsy. Claiming to be Egyptian would come back to haunt them as the Turks of the Ottoman Empire expanded westward into Europe. Perhaps the Gypsies are really Turkish spies, thought some gadje. Fearing the prospect of being conquered by the Moslem Ottoman Turks, gadje suspicion cast its shadow on the Roma.

Under that shadow, they took several giant steps along the road leading to Porrajmos and the gas chambers of Auschwitz. Fear and suspicion sent them down that slippery slope until their standing was such that the European gadje chose to deal with the Roma in the following ways: expulsion, repression, assimilation, sterilization, and later, extermination. Repressive laws and expulsion orders reinforced their nomadic lifestyle. England, France, Germany, and the Scandinavian countries, for example, expelled the Roma. Those who managed to stay behind faced being beaten or hanged. In parts of Europe, killing a Rom was legal. In early eighteenth century Germany, the Germans held "Gypsy hunts" during which they tracked down and killed the Roma. Sometimes, forest fires were set to drive them out of hiding, forcing them to face either death by fire or death at the hands of their hunters.

Also, some areas tolerated the whipping and branding of Romani women. The gadje took Romani children and placed them permanently in non-Gypsy homes, destroying Romani families. Authorities condoned drowning, mass murder, and forced labor. Places such as Hungary, Spain, and Romania instituted slavery. In Romania, both the nobility and the Romanian Orthodox Church held slaves. There, slavery lasted about 550 years, ending in 1864.

During the years leading up to Hitler's taking office as Chancellor of the Third Reich on January 30, 1933, the Roma suffered under other actions. For example, in 1926, they faced two new laws, one "to combat Gypsy nomads and idlers" and the other to control the "Gypsy Plague." In 1927, the Germans passed a law demanding that Gypsies be fingerprinted and photographed. That same year, another one forbade them to travel in family groups. By 1928, Gypsies in Germany were under police surveillance. They lost their civil rights in 1933, and during that same time, legalized clubbing of Gypsies became the rule.

After Hitler became Chancellor, the Nazis introduced a law legalizing eugenic (see box above) sterilization. As a means of creating a pure "Aryan" race, in July of 1933, Hitler's cabinet passed a law against the propagation of "lives not worthy of life" called the "Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring." Because the Nazis considered the Roma to be unworthy of life, they were to be sterilized along with anyone with "genetically determined" illnesses such as schizophrenia, manic-depressive illness, and deafness.

By this time, the Roma had long been if not low man in the social and economic hierarchy then tied for last place with the Jews. They were thought of as "asocial," culturally inferior, and a source of crime. Were Gypsies and blacks human or sub-human? The Nazis set up the Racial Hygiene and Criminal Biology Research Unit to answer this question. Months later, to quote Hancock from his "Responses to the Romani Holocaust," the "Ministry of the Interior, which partially funded the Research Unit, circulated an order forbidding marriages between Germans and 'Gypsies, Negroes, and their bastard offspring.'" Hence, it comes as no surprise that the Roma, in addition to the Jews, came under the restrictions of the Nuremberg Law for the Protection of Blood and Honor, which forbade the intermarriage or sexual relationships between Aryan and non-Aryan peoples. A more strict definition of "Gypsy" came about in 1938. A person could be judged as having too much "Gypsy blood" to be allowed to live if two of the individual's eight great-grandparents were even part Gypsy.

The Nazi government let the German public know, through their actions against the Roma, that it sanctioned the mistreatment and persecution of an "inferior race." Military and police brutality were condoned. The registration of Gypsies had been in effect with even infants being fingerprinted when, in 1933, Gypsies throughout Germany were arrested under "The Law Against Habitual Criminals." Many found themselves doing labor in a concentration camp where some were forced to undergo sterilization. In 1938, during "Gypsy Clean-Up Week," hundreds of Roma in Germany and Austria were gathered together, beaten, and put into prison.

By September 1939, the German government forced the Roma onto a different road--one made of tracks on which trains stuffed with Gypsies traveled eastward to Poland and the concentration camps. It was at the concentration camp at Buchenwald that, to quote Hancock, 250 Gypsy children were "used as guinea pigs for testing the gas Zyklon B..." This gas is a lethal insecticide and was used to exterminate rats. The Nazis used it for mass murders of people at Auschwitz-Birkenau from 1941 onward.

In their search for the means by which to create a "pure Aryan race," the Nazis created three stages of the "Final Solution." The first consisted of mobile killing units, the Einsatzgruppen, whose job it was to eliminate masses of people by shooting them. This method of extermination proved inefficient. Also, it psychologically disturbed the men assigned to such duty. The second, the use of mobile gas vans, began at Chelmno, Poland in December 1941. This method was inefficient as the vans could not handle large numbers. The victims died too slowly, and unloading the vans after the killings consumed too much time. In addition, the cleanup job was a most smelly, unsanitary job. These defects did not prevent five thousand Austrian Gypsies from dying in the mobile gas vans at Chelmno. Stage three began with the use of stationary gas chambers in March 1942. The Nazis used either carbon monoxide or hydrocyanic acid to gas their victims, the latter gas favored at Auschwitz-Birkenau. The gas chambers were more reliable and, because they held so many more people than the gas vans, hundreds of victims could be killed at a time.

Six of the concentration camps located throughout Germany and German-occupied Europe became killing centers where victims were gassed: Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno, Auschwitz-Birkenau, and Majdanek. All six were in Poland.

Many Gypsies from all over Germany and Nazi-occupied territories were gathered up and deported to slave labor and death camps. The mobile killing units and collaborators killed others wherever they found them. Who were killed? What were their names? How many died? Where are their bodies? Such records of "subhumans" were seldom kept, so no one knows the answers to these questions.

The "Final Solution" to the "Gypsy Question" began with Heinrich Himmler's Auschwitz decree of December 16, 1942. All Gypsies in Germany and the Nazi-controlled European territories were to be deported to Auschwitz for extermination. Once there, they were housed in a special Gypsy Family Camp, where they were kept in family units. Why this was done is not certain. Perhaps, because "medical research" was to be performed on both adults and children, it was easier to house them together, or maybe, as the Rom are very family oriented, they were easier to manage when kept together.
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shirley hancock said:
The "Final Solution" to the "Gypsy Question" began with Heinrich Himmler's Auschwitz decree of December 16, 1942. All Gypsies in Germany and the Nazi-controlled European territories were to be deported to Auschwitz for extermination. Once there, they were housed in a special Gypsy Family Camp, where they were kept in family units. Why this was done is not certain. Perhaps, because "medical research" was to be performed on both adults and children, it was easier to house them together, or maybe, as the Rom are very family oriented, they were easier to manage when kept together.

At Auschwitz, Gypsy prisoners wore a "Z" for Zigeuner (Gypsy) tattooed on their left arm and a black triangle, for "asocial," was sewn into their clothes. The Nazis entered them into the Gypsy register with simply a "Z" after their names as just being a Gypsy was reason enough for them to have been arrested. At the hands of the SS (Schutzstaffel, or defense squadron) , the Roma faced "scientific" and "medical" experiments in addition to death in the gas chambers.

In the minds of many, one of the most infamous names associated with Auschwitz is that of Dr. Josef Mengele. He was accused of performing numerous criminal acts: selection (that of choosing which of the new arrivals would go directly to the gas chambers or be saved to work in the camp), lethal injections, shootings, beatings, and other types of killing. His research interested him greatly, especially his study of twins. He had more than one office and used his Gypsy Camp office primarily for his research on Gypsy twins. Curiously, Mengele seemed particularly fond of them. He could treat them kindly and sometimes, he brought them candy. They, in turn, thought of him as an uncle. Yet, he killed individual twins and sets of twins so he could give them post-mortem examinations (especially Gypsy twins at the time of the liquidation of the Gypsy Camp), and the operations he performed on them proved to be fatal.

The surviving Roma at Auschwitz-Berkinau had not yet completed their journey along that horrendous road on which they traveled. Orders arrived stating that the Gypsy Family Camp should be liquidated, the inhabitants killed, and the bodies cremated. In the early morning hours of August 1, 1944, armed SS troups herded the remaining Gypsies in the camp onto trucks, and drove them to the gas chambers to be gassed. Their journey ended with their dead bodies being incinerated in a pit next to the crematorium. In this one action known as Zigeunernacht, approximately 4,000 Roma were killed.

Since the end of World War II and Porrajmos, the Roma have traveled a road which differs little from pre-war roads. They still face discriminatory laws, deportation, violence, and exclusion, with war crimes reparations yet to be paid to them. The runaway bride would have found the real Romani life and not the one pictured in folklore. Centuries-old persecution reached a peak with Porrajmos. Learning of its history may help bring about the long-overdue understanding between gadje and Roma. Together, a safer road can be created on which all can travel without fear.
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frogwoman said:
Never forget.
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Indeed. Another thing never to forget (at the risk of causing major thread drift), is that it was Hitler who began the tradition of carrying the Olympic torch through a raft of participating countries by host athletes as a propaganda gesture.

Le plus ça change... nu?
 
frogwoman said:
Never forget.
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What I'll never forget-- nor anyone who had my parents and grandparents as forebears-- is that the Nazis were in the business of rounding up and imprisoning Social Democratic activists years before they got around to the Jews and Roma. :mad:
 
The Pavelic Papers said:
ACCORDING TO PARTISANS of the movement today, the Croatian Ustase (alternately, to an English audience, Ustasha, Ustashe or Ustashi from ustanak for "uprising") trace their ideological lineage back to the Croatian Party of Right, a 19th century political construct in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Party of Right was formed by Ante Starcevic, an early devotee of what later became known as the Yugoslavist movement, which favoured the union of the Southern Slavs into a common state to stave off German, Turkish, and Italian imperialism in the Balkans.

Founded after his defection to extreme, chauvinistic nationalism, Starcevic's Party of Right defined itself chiefly by what it opposed: the dominance of the Austrian bureaucracy as well as the Hungarian gentry of the Hapsburg state; the Yugoslavist idea promoted in the Croatian lands by Bishop Josip Strossmayer; and, most of all, the Serbian nation, including the thousands of Serbs who had settled at the Emperor's invitation along the Empire's southwestern flank, forming a military bulwark against Turkish expansion. Starcevic postulated that the Croats, unlike the "slave-Serbs," were a lost tribe of Goths who had somehow fallen into a Slavic language, customs and identity.

The Party of Right was doomed to remain on the fringe of Croatian national politics within the Empire. But it was an attractive ideology when it was discovered by a young lawyer from Bradina, a small village in present-day Bosnia-Hercegovina, named Ante Pavelic.

Ante Pavelic rose through the ranks of the Party of Right after the incorporation of Croatia into the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, later to be renamed Yugoslavia. He led the far right-wing of what was already a right-wing party - the "Frankist" faction, so named after Josip Frank, a singularly intolerant man despite his ethnic background as an assimilated Jew.

Party of Right membership in the 1920s was dwarfed by that of a more moderate Croat-based opposition, called the Croatian Peasant Party. Led by the brothers Stjepan and Ante Radic, the Peasant Party rejected the formation of Yugoslavia as illegitimate. Stjepan Radic was an intellectual with a soft touch for the peasantry of his party's name, and a wily, charismatic politician. Avowedly anti-clerical, in the summer of 1924 Radic visited the USSR and affiliated the Peasant Party with the Communist Peasant International, or Krestintern. After a long parliamentary boycott and several spells as a political prisoner, Radic did leave for Belgrade to form a united opposition with Serbian deputies opposed to the ruling elite. On June 20, 1928, a Montenegrin deputy drew a revolver and shot Radic and two other deputies on the floor of parliament itself; he died of his wounds on the eighth of August.

THE FORMATION OF THE USTASE
On January 6, 1929, King Alexander Karadjordjevic declared his personal dictatorship. Among those who sought refuge abroad was Ante Pavelic. After drifting rather aimlessly through Vienna, he established a relationship with Ivan "Vancia" Mihailov's faction of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), a terrorist organization founded more than thirty years before aimed at establishing Bulgarian hegemony in Macedonia. It is believed that Mihailov recommended Pavelic to Italian duce Benito Mussolini, who soon became patron, providing funds and training at a camp near Siena to what Pavelic christened his ustase.

As Italian support was uncertain and often wavered (Count Galeazzo Ciano, Mussolini's son-in-law and Italy's Foreign Minister after 1937, did not meet with Pavelic until more than two years after assuming office), the Ustase sometimes supported the movement through racketeering, extortion, black marketeering, and other criminal activities. The primary victims in these activities were their fellow Croat emigres, a trend which would occur again during their second exile.

It is probable that Mussolini had no prior notice when several Ustase thugs, led by Vancia Mihailov's former driver and bodyguard, followed up on several farcical attempts by the Ustase in Zagreb and succeeded in assassinating King Alexander along with French Foreign Minister Louis Barthou in Marseilles, France on October 7, 1934. An investigation by French authorities indicated that the plan had originated with Pavelic and his loyal lieutenant, Eugen "Dido" Kvaternik, who were both tried in absentia and sentenced to death by a French court after Mussolini refused to permit their extradition.

From the beginning, Pavelic had quite naturally adopted Starcevic and Frank's ideology for his own movement. As with the Italian Fascists, the Ustase was at its origins xenophobic, and author Stella Alexander's description of some articles in the Croatian Catholic press from this time as "unpleasantly anti-Semitic but in a traditional, pre-Hitlerian way" fits the Ustase as well. Ante Pavelic's own wife, Mara Lovrencic, came from a family of assimilated Viennese Jews, and his chief aide in exile, Dido Kvaternik, was related to Josip Frank. Nevertheless, the movement became both overtly and violently anti-Semitic when the center of gravity for the militant right shifted from Rome to Berlin and Hitler's Nazi Party.

THE INDEPENDENT STATE OF CROATIA
Ustase terrorist attacks inside Yugoslavia accelerated as conditions for Croats at home became, on the whole, more tolerable. Following the murder of King Alexander, the Regent, Prince Paul, personally took in hand the process of negotiating an acceptable settlement between the most prominent Serb and Croat leaders. In 1939 they initialed the Sporazum, or "Agreement" between Dragisa Cvetkovic and Radic's successor in the Peasant Party, Vladko Macek. Croatia was given a broad autonomy in all matters but for foreign affairs, monetary policy and the military. The Ustase, whose first credited terrorist attack in Yugoslavia killed most of a large family when a bomb was planted on a railway in a suburb of Belgrade, launched a furious series of reprisals, targeting both the Peasant Party as well as the government and, of course, civilians.

On March 24, 1941, Hitler obtained the signature of the Yugoslav government on the Tripartite Pact. He intended to break the first provisions within weeks by "requesting" his new allies to allow his troops to use the Nis-Thessaloniki Railway to invade Greece, where the Italians were suffering a catastrophic series of defeats following their invasion. On the night of March 26, a group of junior officers in the Air Force overthrew the Yugoslav government and the Regency, placing themselves in office and the 17 year old heir, King Peter II, on the throne. His reign lasted all of two weeks as the Germans invaded the country on April 6.

Four days later, Slavko Kvaternik - Dido Kvaternik's father and the elder statesman of the Ustase movement - declared the Independent State of Croatia in the name of the poglavnik (a Croatian equivalent of duce or fuehrer) Ante Pavelic. Consolidated by Italian and German troops, Pavelic established himself in Zagreb and immediately unleashed a column of fire on the Serbian population. Aspiring to form an ethnically pure paradise out of a state in which Croats were, in fact, a minority, he was advised by Hitler not to show too much pity. "If the Croat state wishes to be strong," he told his pupil, "a fifty year policy of intolerance must be pursued, because too much tolerance on such issues can only do harm."

Within weeks, Pavelic's bloodiest henchman, Vjekoslav "Maks" Luburic, began laying the groundwork for Jasenovac, the largest concentration camp in Southern Europe. Peasant Party leader Vladko Macek, who had originally welcomed the Ustase's formation of the Independent State of Croatia, found himself among the first internees at Jasenovac and watched as Croatia's Jewish population along with untold numbers of Serbs, Roma, and political dissidents passed through the gates on their way to extermination. Macek was later released to serve under house arrest.

On July 22, 1941, doglavnik or deputy leader Mile Budak crystallized the Ustase ideology with a statement, later carried in the official press, that "We shall kill one part of the Serbs. We shall transport another third, and the rest of them will embrace the Roman Catholic religion... Our Croatia will become Catholic within ten years."

Ustase atrocities provoked the Serbian population of the Independent State of Croatia to rise in arms, flooding the ranks of the monarchist Chetnik and the Communist-led Partizan armies. The state was soon torn apart by internal revolt, and the Ustase, for all of their gore, were never able to establish full control over their mountainous territory. Their shocking behavior exasperated many hardened German officers, including General Edmund Glaise von Horstenau, who peppered his reports to Berlin with denunciations of the Ustase and "unspeakable swineishness of this gang of murderers and criminals."

Mussolini, too, soon turned against his former proteges, and after an initial withdrawal, ordered his army to reoccupy Hercegovina, the birthplace of many of the Ustase chieftains and stamped in blood by the Ustase Terror. Two junior ministers, Mladen Lorkovic and Ante Vokic, were planning a coup against Pavelic in 1944 when their machinations were discovered. Both were arrested and sent to the camp at Lepoglava, where they were murdered in an act of spite on Maks Luburic's orders in May of 1945.
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the Pavelic Papers said:
The final count of victims of the Ustase (not just within concentration camps such as Jasenovac, but also from massacres throughout the country) will probably never be known. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, DC estimates between 330,000 and 390,000 Serbian victims across the NDH. The Simon Wiesenthal Center has estimated that at least 30,000 Jews (75% of the pre-war population), 29,000 Roma (97%) and 500,000 Serbs - or about one-third of the pre-war population - were murdered in the four years of the Independent State of Croatia's existence. Yet there was no equivalent of Nuremburg for the Ustase.

THE RATLINE
Pavelic, Budak, Interior Minister Andrija Artukovic, and a horde of other Ustase ringleaders donned disguises and concealed themselves among 50,000 Croatian refugees fleeing for Austria. Pursued by the Partizans, they reached the city of Bleiburg before the British turned them back. Or some of them, for nearly all of the political leaders, and a good number of military leaders who were in the column of refugees had somehow disappeared while in British custody. The rest were sent to Yugoslav internment camps, marched until collapse, or shot by firing squads.

Pavelic made his way from Austria to Italy, where he and many other high-ranking Ustase sought shelter in the Monastery of San Girolamo degli Illrici under the protection of a former Ustase official and priest, Father Krunoslav Draganovic. Agents at American Army's Counter-Intelligence Corps (CIC) tracked Pavelic's movements and prepared for his arrest before they were, inexplicably at the time, ordered to cease and desist by their superiors. It is clear from reading their reports today, particularly those written by the only surviving member of the Rome CIC team, William Gowen, that the Americans had taken over what was termed the "Ratline" (after the highest point on a mast where sailors would seek shelter on a sinking ship) from the Vatican. Draganovic became a precious American asset and most of the Ustase who made it as far as Italy were able to escape to South America, Spain and, in Artukovic's case, to the United States. In one of his final reports before being transferred from the Rome branch of the CIC, Gowen wrote that "Pavelic's contacts are so high and his present position is so compromising to the Vatican, that any extradition of Subject would deal a staggering blow to the Roman Catholic Church."

THE REBIRTH OF THE USTASE
Luburic meanwhile had been placed in command of the remaining Ustase forces inside Yugoslavia and led a low-level insurgency until at least 1948. Several groups of Ustase fugitives in Austria, who called themselves Krizari or "Crusaders," infiltrated the country in an attempt to link up with Luburic's guerrillas. This too has was an American operation, with Pavelic kept apprised of the developments via wireless radio contact through his loyal secretary, former minister in the Independent State of Croatia Vjekoslav Vrancic. The Krizari Campaign was betrayed by Soviet double-agent Kim Philby, who also informed Moscow of a similar operation to infiltrate monarchist Albanians into that country, though the program later served as a model for CIA insurgency campaigns in South America and the Caribbean.

Safely ensconced in Buenos Aires with other Ustase leaders (another Draganovic benefactor, Klaus Barbie, was in Bolivia), Pavelic spent the next few years establishing the dominance of his own and the other Ustase successor organizations. In 1956 he established the Croatian Liberation Movement (one of the original names used by the Ustase during his first exile). The HOP's founding declaration is a rambling manifesto, though its list of signatories includes both Pavelic and 12 other ministers of the Independent State of Croatia and goes a long way towards illustrating both the extensive reach and the overwhelming success of the Ratline program. One of those who did not sign, Maks Luburic, had meanwhile escaped to Spain after the failure of the Krizari Campaign and there established the HOP's sister organization, the Croatian National Resistance, colloquially known as "Otpor" or "Odpor."

Eventually the two leaders would have a falling out, though both the HOP and Otpor survived their leaders' passing. Pavelic died as a result of old age and injuries sustained in an attempted assassination in Argentina, while Luburic's body was found in his villa in Valencia on April 20, 1969 with a fractured skull and several stab wounds, presumably delivered by Yugoslav dictator Tito's secret police. The organizations however remained under the command of leaders dating back to the Independent State of Croatia and soon became textbook examples of what the US intelligence community refers to as "blowback" - the unintended negative consequences of an intelligence operation. Otpor in particular became a singularly terroristic organization, engaging in the attempted assassination of dozens of Yugoslav diplomats and bombings on a massive scale (including a crowded theater in Belgrade, an airliner in mid-flight over Czechoslovakia, and LaGuardia Airport which blinded a police officer).

The Ustase successor organizations also returned to their roots in blackmail and racketeering, as they began to intimidate and assault other Croatian emigres in the United States and elsewhere who condemned violence, refused to offer "donations," or otherwise failed to support their extremist platform. In two New York trials, nearly the entire leadership of Otpor in North America was convicted of more than 50 counts of racketeering, hiring two members of the Chicago mafia to kill the president of the umbrella Croatian Fraternal Union, and mailing bombs concealed in hollowed-out books to the Croatian editor of the CFU's journal and a Croatian Catholic priest in Milwaukee. The Otpor members were convicted under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act, which was devised to assist law enforcement against the Italian La Cosa Nostra crime families.

CONCLUSIONS
The myth of the Ustase as benign "founding fathers" of Croatian statehood was resurrected in the 1990s. The most prominent Croat militia in the Bosnian civil war consciously displayed Ustase regalia, and two relics of the Independent State of Croatia, Vinko Nikolic and Ivo Rojnica, were nominated to prominent positions by Croatia's first president, Franjo Tudjman. (Croatia's current president, Stipe Mesic, supported a law to ban the display of all neo-fascist symbols, including the Ustase letter "U" insignia.) Amid the turmoil of war, conscious efforts were made to play down Ustase atrocities of the past, in large part by organizations such as the HOP or their splinter groups, many of which scorn modern Croatia's Independence Day and instead mark April 10th - when Slavko Kvaternik proclaimed the Independent State of Croatia in the name of Ante Pavelic - as the day they celebrate their national heritage.

In truth, the Ustase were at least the equal to the Nazis in brutality, though not in efficiency. A disproportionately large number of Ratline refugees were members of the Ustase, among them some of the most sinister and sadistic officers of the state security agencies, concentration camp guards and others directly responsible for the mass murder which will forever dominate any impartial view of the ephemeral, violent construct known as the Independent State of Croatia.
Click to expand...

Tudjman didnt have a problem with these disgusting nazis and their "beliefs". He claimed that only 20 000 people died at Jasenovac and that it was insignificant compared to the crimes of the allies. Why? There is only one reason. A reason which became horrifically clear once he was in power. Guess what it is.

All holocaust deniers are "harmless, bumbling fools". Who cares if someone denies the holocaust - it just means they're ignorant, doesn't it. No, it cant possibly have anything to do with their wanting to repeat it, they're just into a few wacky theories. No. Nothing to worry about at all. Keep your mouth shut, otherwise you're as bad as them. Aren't you?

Aren't you?

:mad:
 
frogwoman said:
as a jew it's ironic for me that the one member of my family who was killed by the fash wasn't even jewish. he wasn't into any kind of violence, he was just a christian who believed strongly in his faith enough to believe that hitler was killing germany and that it was against god and anything that he believed in. :(
Click to expand...

Indeed. During the Hungarian expulsion, thousands of practicing Catholics and Lutherans suddenly found themselves herded into cattle cars bound for Poland as "Jews", owing to a suspect grandparent or two. :(
 
MikeMcc said:
Further proof that he can't count, The UK hasn't suffered >1000 military fatalities in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Click to expand...


Of course,for the purposes of this exercise they chose a cut-off date of 1997.

A better measure might have been to list conflicts in which the fatalities of the other side exceeded 1000.
 
4thwrite said:
Removing him from their staff page was clearly a short term holding measure. Still a mass of pages on/by him if you search their site. Be interesting to see how seriously they are taking this if and when this other material disappears. They might still want his publications for the reseach selectivity exercise.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/
Click to expand...
The work of paid research fellows often would not be included in the Research Assessment Exercise (below a certain level of seniority the universities can choose who submits their work for assessment), let alone honorary ones. Not even sure if honorary appointments can be included in RAE at all as this would be begging for abuse. Anything he's published during the relevant period for their RAE will almost certainly have been co-authored by others at UCL so it will count towards their RAE anyway.
 
Y_I_Otter said:
What I'll never forget-- nor anyone who had my parents and grandparents as forebears-- is that the Nazis were in the business of rounding up and imprisoning Social Democratic activists years before they got around to the Jews and Roma. :mad:
Click to expand...

Yep with the collusion of the Weimar state!!

Like turkeys voting for Christmas.
 
And some of the anti-gypsy laws were passed, as the link i posted earlier up says, in 1926 or earlier, way before the fash got into power.
 
Speaking of Pavelic, whilst we're here... as an aside, maybe even a tangent - does anyone know any juicy details about the Vatican smuggling Pavelic and similar cohorts off to Chile and Argentina?

As well as Mengele, Priebke, Eichmann, Clause Barbe... Argentina was considered a "paradise" for fleeing Nazi scum in the closing months of the war.

Catholic priests and Muslim clerics were united to smuggle such surplus humans out of Europe - not out of humane compassion, but to cover their arses... and keep the loot. All that gold, never found!

Were submarines used?
Was a clear Atlantic passage granted by the Allied forces turning a blind eye?
If so - what did the Allies gain?

Another thread perhaps... ?

Lest we forget - many of the high level Nazis ended up working for the US government... in all kinds of fields.

Might be worth persuing. Might be too deep even for Urban75.

Still, it's a more valid conspiracy theory than anything the "truthers" have invented lately mainly because it's based upon fact... plus the bonus of not being able to blame the Jews makes it more interesting...
 
pk said:
Speaking of Pavelic, whilst we're here... as an aside, maybe even a tangent - does anyone know any juicy details about the Vatican smuggling Pavelic and similar cohorts off to Chile and Argentina?

As well as Mengele, Priebke, Eichmann, Clause Barbe... Argentina was considered a "paradise" for fleeing Nazi scum in the closing months of the war.

Catholic priests and Muslim clerics were united to smuggle such surplus humans out of Europe - not out of humane compassion, but to cover their arses... and keep the loot. All that gold, never found!

Were submarines used?
Was a clear Atlantic passage granted by the Allied forces turning a blind eye?
If so - what did the Allies gain?

Another thread perhaps... ?

Lest we forget - many of the high level Nazis ended up working for the US government... in all kinds of fields.

Might be worth persuing. Might be too deep even for Urban75.

Still, it's a more valid conspiracy theory than anything the "truthers" have invented lately mainly because it's based upon fact... plus the bonus of not being able to blame the Jews makes it more interesting...
Click to expand...

yeah, the pavelic papers has plenty to say on this subject ...

such brave people, exposing the truth about the zionist run establishment ... that there was nothing to expose, after all.
 
ymu said:
Anything he's published during the relevant period for their RAE will almost certainly have been co-authored by others at UCL so it will count towards their RAE anyway.
Click to expand...

His astrology/alchemy stuff is irrelevant anyway.

As long as it's clear he's a filthy nazi-apologist Jew-hating bigoted wanker with no credibility whatsoever, and his vile "holohoax" beliefs are certainly not linked to the respectable reputation of UCL, then that's good enough for now.

It's only Monday/Tuesday, after all!

Give it time until the Hebrew and Jewish faculty get wind of it - they probably know more about him than we ever will.

Bye bye facist fuckwit!

ape-waving.gif
 
pk said:
Speaking of Pavelic, whilst we're here... as an aside, maybe even a tangent - does anyone know any juicy details about the Vatican smuggling Pavelic and similar cohorts off to Chile and Argentina?

As well as Mengele, Priebke, Eichmann, Clause Barbe... Argentina was considered a "paradise" for fleeing Nazi scum in the closing months of the war.

Catholic priests and Muslim clerics were united to smuggle such surplus humans out of Europe - not out of humane compassion, but to cover their arses... and keep the loot. All that gold, never found!

Were submarines used?
Was a clear Atlantic passage granted by the Allied forces turning a blind eye?
If so - what did the Allies gain?

Another thread perhaps... ?

Lest we forget - many of the high level Nazis ended up working for the US government... in all kinds of fields.

Might be worth persuing. Might be too deep even for Urban75.

Still, it's a more valid conspiracy theory than anything the "truthers" have invented lately mainly because it's based upon fact... plus the bonus of not being able to blame the Jews makes it more interesting...
Click to expand...

Some links on American collaboration with NAZI war criminals.

The CIA's Worst-Kept Secret
Newly Declassified Files Confirm United States Collaboration with Nazis
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0508-05.htm


This article claims that Alolf Eichmann was covered up by the CIA.

Documents show CIA covered up Nazi war criminals during Cold War
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-06-06-cia-nazis_x.htm


The CIA and Nazi War Criminals
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB146/index.htm

Our Nazi allies
http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/05/03/nazi/print.html
 
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