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Conspiraloon 9/11- 7/7 Truther outed as Holocaust denier

Sure.

First she wasn't hired six months after Sept 11th, she was in fact hired nine days after. Where did you get six months from?

Six months is the sum total of her time as a translator, my mistake.


In six months Sibel Edwards was able to piece together a huge vaste conspiracy that no one else could? What is she? Nancy Drew?

It's taken her this long to get even a whiff of mainstream media interest -

Bullshit. She appeared on sixty minutes years ago. Try again

the Sunday Times is assuredly her most high profile exposure yet.

You mean the Sunday Times article which makes no specific or concrete claims about 911 (aside from the Atta 100 grand canard) That specific piece of bullshit?


Despite this there has been no more movement on her case, either in the media, or via the legal system and it's back in the doldrums. Quite incredible given the circumstances.

Or alternatively she's a dubious source of unspecified claims that CTers love.
 
Has anyone apart from me noticed that Darios has turned this into a conspiracy theory thread, 8den is encouraging him, and that there's a danger of froggie's post getting lost down a page of multi-quotes?
 
In six months Sibel Edwards was able to piece together a huge vaste conspiracy that no one else could? What is she? Nancy Drew?

Not quite what she did 8den. You're being disingenuous. Other people have pieced her evidence together with other investigations with solid links.


Bullshit. She appeared on sixty minutes years ago. Try again

That's correct. I forgot about that. My mistake.



You mean the Sunday Times article which makes no specific or concrete claims about 911 (aside from the Atta 100 grand canard) That specific piece of bullshit?

Who said this was about 911?
She makes one claim about govt foreknowledge, (and as a result gave 3 hours of testimony to the 911 commission) however its the remainder of her testimony that is far more interesting; specifically regarding the nuclear black market.


Or alternatively she's a dubious source of unspecified claims that CTers love.

If she was a dubious source she would have been outed by now. Instead she's been gagged under threat of imprisonment. She's got support from many high profile people including congresspeople, the Inspector General and a substantial number of government accountability pressure groups.
 
Are you still defending this bloke then jazzz? After (presumably) reading what he has to say? On what grounds? Free spech? Fine, but that means a commitment from you that he is a negationist, that he is a holocaust denier. Do we have that? Is that your position, that he is a holocaust denier but that denial is his right? Let's be clear here.

ok, first things first. I missed this post last night (and several others), so apologies if it was out of synch and I seemed to claim otherwise.

Yes, by the definition of 'holocaust denier' that wikipedia gives you would have to include Nick K. He accepted the term himself on BK's blog, so I don't see why you need me to confirm it.

All I am defending him against is the charge of anti-semitism. This is because I know the guy, and you all know I've had some association with him, and you were demanding I comment.

Note how a few people have said that having met me they find it hard to imagine me as well... some kind of evil nazi apologist. Well guess what, that's exactly how I feel about Nick K. He comes across as utterly harmless if perhaps somewhat barmy (and that's me saying that ;) )

Let's also be clear again that:
1) I do not share Nick K.'s views here, and this is the first I know about them. I suspect some posters are disappointed with that - wouldn't it be a great stick to beat jazzz with?
2) I'm pretty disappointed he's making an issue of them. I don't think it does 9/11 Truth Campaigning any favours
3) I respect his right to hold such views and exercise free speech
4) I realise that neo-nazi groups may also share the same views for unpalatable reason. Anyone that blames 'The Jews' for anything - I will have nothing to do with.

TBH, I don't know how much I'll have to do with Nick K after this anyway, for reason (2), but I'll stick up my strong belief that he is no anti-semite.

I would suggest that rather than getting on a moral crusade about Nick K., a benign man who believes in crop circles and makes purple gold, and start suggesting that 'free speech has limits', posters (especially BK) might want to pay attention to Deborah Lipstadt's viewpoint, when she said about David Irving - we know who she is of course?

Yet Lipstadt, arguably the best-known warrior against Holocaust denial, believes that the best outcome would be for Irving to be let go.

"I would not want to see him spend more time in jail," she says.

"I am uncomfortable with imprisoning people for speech. Let him go and let him fade from everyone's radar screens."
BBC

Lipstadt knows that the only sure defence against fascism is such rigid protection of human rights. That is what one must learn from WWII. State propagandists succeeded then and they may just as easily do so again. We shouldn't think for a second that we are somehow immune, or too clever. The only sure defence is to be utterly vigilant about free speech, and human rights.

4thwrite said:
Tiny flashes in there that you acknowledge the basic indecency with which you have handled this issue - but then off you go again, prancing, deflecting, quibbling. In a way, this thread has ceased to be about 9/11, its even ceased to be about the holocaust. Its now about you. Really basic human stuff here - you agree with someone on an issue close to your heart and are prepared to play every trick you can to avoid admitting the guy holds monstrous views. To me that's the worst kind of rationalisation, shoddy behaviour. You've still got a chance to redeem yourself, but sooner would be better than later. I'd think a lot more of you if you did that.

No, sorry. I don't 'agree' with Nick Kollerstrom here. I don't agree with him about crop circles either, or his moon stuff. I may agree with him that there is something very fishy about 9/11.

As I pointed out earlier (several posters it seemed were assuming otherwise I now read, not just quasar), the 'holocaust denialers' don't actually deny that vast numbers of Jews were rounded up and died in horrible circumstances in forced labour camps, which is genocide and quite bad enough. Even if all their claims were true, to me it would hardly make the nazis much less repugnant.

I accept the official version of events. I am no expert. I haven't looked into it in any great detail at all. For me it would matter little anyway, as stated above. I would like to think that people that know a lot more than I do about WWII would debunk such stuff, and I trust that they have.

This answers questions put by BadgerKitten and Aldebaran.

Red O said:
Then why did you accuse Badger Kitten of "hysteria" when she said "6m people were murdered"?
Because she claimed it as if an indisputable fact, where we only have estimates. She and other posters also seemed to believe that Nick K. was denying that any Jews died at the hands of the Germans. And patently you can also see how much certain posters wanted to 'get me' for sharing Nick K.'s views. This is all symptomatic of the lynch mob, it's hysterical, and no good for truth.

I hope we've all calmed down a bit.

Y I Otter said:
That's where the problem arises. The kind of people who refer to the Holocaust as a 'myth' or 'hoax' also believe Jews-- religious, cultural or biological-- constitute an elite, part of a vast plan to decieve and enslave, with world domination as their ultimate goal. "Holocaust skeptics", to a man, especially those you're likely to encounter online, are of this mindset. All of them.

I'll just say this about Kollerstrom and then maybe I'll back off, since you seem to have your hands full here. What I'm sensing from this fellow is the unquestioning righteousness of the newly-converted. I can tell you that with a bit of authority because I've been following the arguments of Holocaust deniers in some detail since the second Zündel trial of 1988. The man you're defending is such a n00b that he's basically following along the whole denier Via Trollerosa, genuflecting at each time-worn, oft-demolished station on it. If it can be said that there's such a thing as "mainstream Holocaust denial" his death toll is on the very looniest of fringes.

Ask him where he's getting his numbers. I bet you dollars to donuts he references a website and not a book. I can pretty much tell you what sites he's going to point to and they're all of them virulently antisemitic in nature.
I take issue with your first paragraph. Accusing elites is not the same as accusing entire races. I believe we are ruled by an 'elite' which may have a zionist element and which treats everyone else, Jews and non-Jews, like cattle.

I don't take issue with the second. You may be right. Right now, I'm afraid I've little desire to contact Nick though.

Right it's taken a long time to get that far and that's it for a while. I might have a look at froggy's post but I'm hoping that this one isn't going to run and run - it really isn't worth it.
 
Has anyone apart from me noticed that Darios has turned this into a conspiracy theory thread, 8den is encouraging him, and that there's a danger of froggie's post getting lost down a page of multi-quotes?


I'll happily stop responding to Darios, but if you think this piece of evidence of further relations between 911 assholes and holocaust deniers is the one that is going to convince Jazzz about 911 conspiracy theorists.

911 conspiracy theorists like Eric D. Williams, Nicholas Kollerstrom, Chris Boyln, Eric May, Webster Tarpley, Steve Campbell, Kevin Barrett, Eric Hufschmid, Tony Gosling, David Icke, have all made on the record denials about Holocaust.

When you see that list and still claim aren't links between Holocaust Denial and the Truth Movement, you're a hopeless lost cause.
 
8den, I couldn't care less about what Darios is posting. I think he's got some extremely dodgey views which are self evident in his posting history. I mentioned that at the start of the thread.

It's no surprise to me that he wants to redirect this thread back into conspiracy theories in general, and then into this specific one.

You're letting him, either because you don't detect what's going on in terms of a derail - or because you value arguing with him more than what we're discussing on this thread.

It's entirely up to you of course, but I'm just making a request that you either contribute to the subject of the thread - or STFU.
 
Originally Posted by Red O
Then why did you accuse Badger Kitten of "hysteria" when she said "6m people were murdered"?

Because she claimed it as if an indisputable fact, where we only have estimates. She and other posters also seemed to believe that Nick K. was denying that any Jews died at the hands of the Germans. And patently you can also see how much certain posters wanted to 'get me' for sharing Nick K.'s views. This is all symptomatic of the lynch mob, it's hysterical, and no good for truth.

I hope we've all calmed down a bit.

We only have 'estimates' in that mainstream scholarship is uncertain about where precisely, in the range of around five or six million, how many Jews were killed by the Nazis. At worst, Badger Kitten assumes the figure is toward the high end of that spectrum. Your associate, on the other hand, makes the qualititatively different claim that "no German ever put a Jew into a gas chamber". You say that you believe that Kollerstrom isn't an anti-Semite, but what, apart from anti-semitism, could motivate such a claim? Do you think there is evidence to back it up?
 
Just can't keep up with this thread. And it gets pretty nasty too.

I suppose if people are willing to write-off free speech as "bullshit" or some sort of liberal get-out clause then it doesn't matter.

Has there been any mention of the Gulag atrocities yet? There's a Ukranian church in Halifax with a plaque outside remembering the 3 million Ukranians who were starved to death in 1935. There are still a few Marxists around in denial about pograms that murdered millions more than the Nazi ever did. There are still more who continue to see Cuba through the same denial spectacles.

But who is going to judge the limits of free speech? And how is restricted speech to be patrolled? And what does free speech sound like?

I'd be intrigued to know.
 
Theres a load screw loose change post comparing the behaviour of Holocaust deniers to 911 truthers

Standards of Evidence

Thousands of witnesses don't mean anything because they are Zionist shills. Vague speculation is more proof than that. Need I say more?

Cui Bono?

One of the arguments that Al Qaeda did not carry out 9/11 was that they did not benefit from it. Likewise, Holocaust Deniers have (and I was stunned by this idiocy) claimed that the Nazis would never have murdered millions of Jews, because they did not benefit from it. Their war machine could have used those resources better. Of course both of these are offensive and ignore the ideology behind the respective movements.
 
This looks very close to ZOG to me. What the fuck are you into Jazzz?

Here's the rationale

Thing is, you really do need to know a whole load of underlying mysticism, occultism, mythology, gnosticism, secret society etc etc beliefs in order to piece together where they're coming from to understand it. Helps to understand, cos then you see why to reject what they're saying and why (as opposed to 'you're nutters' which actually gives them fuel).
 
Here's the rationale

Thing is, you really do need to know a whole load of underlying mysticism, occultism, mythology, gnosticism, secret society etc etc beliefs in order to piece together where they're coming from to understand it. Helps to understand, cos then you see why to reject what they're saying and why (as opposed to 'you're nutters' which actually gives them fuel).

Most of it appears to be ripped straight from the Illuminati books mentioned earlier tbh.

What concerns me is that Jazzz is letting himself be used by fascists to spread their shit and he isn't even aware of it.
 
This isn't a thread about the actual details of 911 theories, this is a thread about a particular proponent also being a holocaust denier, thus it would be best to stick to the latter and ignore the former.
 
Though clearly 99 percent of them are nutters.

Kollerstrom's alchemy theories are particularly funny.

And crop circles.

And gardening by the moon.

wibble6nt.jpg
 
Most of it appears to be ripped straight from the Illuminati books mentioned earlier tbh.

No, it goes deeper than that. To an extent, you can really get distracted/attracted by the Illuminati thing (which is what I think many conspiracy theorists do). It's a bit of a red herring tbh, cos all it did was selectively draw upon some of the elements that were already out there and kind of bring them altogether in a parodying fashion. You don't even understand the parody unless you're aware of the separate elements. Let's face it, a lot of people dismiss organised religion/belief (for example) without understanding the religions/beliefs in themselves, and underestimate the power that they have as a result.

Blagsta said:
What concerns me is that Jazzz is letting himself be used by fascists to spread their shit and he isn't even aware of it.

Maybe. But that's why we'd like an answer to (a) (b) or (c) but I note that Jazzz didn't do that again. Instead he introduces yet more conspiracy stuff in his long post, and thinks that we don't notice, or that we'll spend time on that rather than homing back to the key question.
 
You think he is aware he is allying with fascists?

He may not realise it because he's so immersed in it.

Edit: I'm not sure if he's aware or not. But even if he's not aware - he won't examine it to see if it's maybe true, because he's trying to defend his position. That's natural.
 
He may not realise it because he's so immersed in it.

Edit: I'm not sure if he's aware or not. But even if he's not aware - he won't examine it to see if it maybe true, because he's trying to defend his position. That's natural.

Some people, although nice in themselves, will remain forever hopelessly naive and susceptible to all sorts of daftness, if it makes them feel important and wanted.

nazi%20estupido%20.jpg
 
Originally Posted by 4thwrite
Tiny flashes in there that you acknowledge the basic indecency with which you have handled this issue - but then off you go again, prancing, deflecting, quibbling. In a way, this thread has ceased to be about 9/11, its even ceased to be about the holocaust. Its now about you. Really basic human stuff here - you agree with someone on an issue close to your heart and are prepared to play every trick you can to avoid admitting the guy holds monstrous views. To me that's the worst kind of rationalisation, shoddy behaviour. You've still got a chance to redeem yourself, but sooner would be better than later. I'd think a lot more of you if you did that.

JAZZZ: No, sorry. I don't 'agree' with Nick Kollerstrom here. I don't agree with him about crop circles either, or his moon stuff. I may agree with him that there is something very fishy about 9/11.

As I pointed out earlier (several posters it seemed were assuming otherwise I now read, not just quasar), the 'holocaust denialers' don't actually deny that vast numbers of Jews were rounded up and died in horrible circumstances in forced labour camps, which is genocide and quite bad enough. Even if all their claims were true, to me it would hardly make the nazis much less repugnant.

I accept the official version of events. I am no expert. I haven't looked into it in any great detail at all. For me it would matter little anyway, as stated above. I would like to think that people that know a lot more than I do about WWII would debunk such stuff, and I trust that they have.

You misunderstand me or are playing a game here (the former i hope). When I said "you agree with someone on an issue close to your heart ", I meant you agree with him on 9/11. I don't think you agree with him on the holocaust - as I've said and others have. Nothing at all to do with the moon or crop circles. :rolleyes: Following on from that, the real issue is that your shared 9/11 beliefs stop you criticising his view that the holocaust didn't happen - even getting into rather distasteful exchanges as to whether 6 million was a 'fact'.

Loyalty is never a bad thing, but i have an awful feeling this is a strategic rather than a personal loyalty. Its more that you are not prepared to get stuck into a prominent 9/11er than a sense of loyalty to him personaly. Am i wrong?
 
Just can't keep up with this thread. And it gets pretty nasty too.

I suppose if people are willing to write-off free speech as "bullshit" or some sort of liberal get-out clause then it doesn't matter.

Has there been any mention of the Gulag atrocities yet? There's a Ukranian church in Halifax with a plaque outside remembering the 3 million Ukranians who were starved to death in 1935. There are still a few Marxists around in denial about pograms that murdered millions more than the Nazi ever did. There are still more who continue to see Cuba through the same denial spectacles.

But who is going to judge the limits of free speech? And how is restricted speech to be patrolled? And what does free speech sound like?

I'd be intrigued to know.

If you'd bothered to read my reply to your previous tirade, you'd have noticed that I mentioned the Ukrainian famine.
But you didn't bother to read it, did you? :)
 
Some people, although nice in themselves, will remain forever hopelessly naive and susceptible to all sorts of daftness, if it makes them feel important and wanted.

Oh yes, absolutely. That's how you recruit, innit. Tap into that potential in a presentable & acceptable manner, knowing that the other side will just diss them and send them running further into your arms. Job done.
 
Oh yes, absolutely. That's how you recruit, innit. Tap into that potential in a presentable & acceptable manner, knowing that the other side will just diss them and send them running further into your arms. Job done.

For example Webster Tarpley was a right hand man for Lyndon J LaRouche, I really suspect Tarpley is a gatekeeper for recruits for LaRouchian groups.
 
For example Webster Tarpley was a right hand man for Lyndon J LaRouche, I really suspect Tarpley is a gatekeeper for recruits for LaRouchian groups.

I don't know anything much about that, tbh. But if you're expanding on the theme of "useful idiots", then yeah. Obvious innit.
 
i don't think you're anti-semitic jazzz but i do think you often have a blind spot when it comes to these people you associate with. i mean you haave to seriously think about what you are saying, and whose theories you are promoting, when some of these websites and people who many (not all!!) conspiracy theorists "respect" openly promote anti-semitism and racism!!!

jeff rense, alex jones, david icke... all these people are well known for making anti-semetic and anti-black, anti-immigrant statements which can be easily found on their own websites. and i will never understand why people see them as tellers of the truth when quite obviously their views and ideologies play into the hands of people who can then point to it and say about 9/11 and the subsequent events that there is nothing to investigate, that anyone who criticises or raises questions about the government's policy or the depiction of it in the media must be some kind of fanatic!!

who in their right mind, who is not a nazi, claims that there were no gas chambers, and that people in the concentration camps were not intentionally killed? that the claims of hundreds of witnesses, including former nazis themselves, are untrue? and made up by zionists???

does anyone seriously believe that a small terrorist group like the stern gang or irgun would have persuaded hitler to annex territories in Europe and kill millions of jews, gypsies, serbs, russians, as well as try the enslavement of poles and czechs on German "living space", murder political opponents (including many nazis) and disabled and gay people or could have paid him to do it? of course they tried to collaborate with the nazis but not to that extent. does anyone seriously think that these terrorists from a group hitler wanted to wipe out had any affect on his policy?

would killing gypsies (which was denied for many years afterwards) have helped set up Israel?? NO! did they collaborate with the romanian fash who just did their own thing? No!

It wont surprise me in the least if we dig up several more mass graves dating from the Nazi era and continue to do so for years. There are still people missing from that time that nobody knows what happened to. There are too many countries that have never faced up to what their wartime leadership did and sometimes the government even view it as a good thing. Croatia and Romania especially, but there are others. And lest we forget there was a legion of British soldiers and captured prisoners of war who chose, voluntarily, to fight for the SS. There were British soldiers in Libya who were involved in massacres of Jews.

Given this can we really say that "questioning aspects of the holocaust" and saying that it was not as bad as first suggested is justified or that it is the right thing to do after 60 years? Of course, because it wasnt as bad as everyone thinks. It was alot worse.

only a nazi has a reason for making up these lies. why would a person who doesn't agree with a nazi ideology dispute the testimonies of witnesses who are clearly distressed, the soldiers who entered the camps and found bodies pile up to the cieling, the people who thought they were signing up to help their country only to find they were expected to be involved in atrocities?

why do they downplay the victims of nazi scum? what is their interest in making the fash look less bad than they were? why try and make it seem as though nazi atrocities are comparable to any other army's activities in war? why? they are not comparable, atrocities happen in all wars, and there have been genocides throughout history, but there is clear and incontrovertible evidence of a systematic policy of industrialised genocide, something that, for all their faults, the allies did NOT do in World War 2.

they are aware that gas chambers werent the only method used to kill people - the einsatzgruppen anyone? what about the trucks which the filthy scum used to put people in the back of and then drive around until they died? what about the "jew hunts" and the fact that people used to be forced to do pressups and run around for the SS "soldiers" amusement until they collasped with exhaustion? the reports, written by fash "doctors" themselves, describing the medical experiments which they conducted on innocent people in order to determine how low or high of temperatures or amounts of oxygen the human body could withstand? the sickening "tourists" who paid to go around fash occupied Poland to view for themselves how "disgusting" and "subhuman" the Poles and Jews were?

its the atmosphere of denial that enables people to say, "oh well, you know all things considered, maybe hitler wasn't so bad after all?"

all of this stuff is meticulously well documented because the fash kept records, they took pride in their "work", and although they destroyed some, most of them still survive.

What have these people got to say about something like Hitler's genocidal hatred of serbs and a plan to murder them all, that most people dont know about, again, something that has been delbierately downplayed and denied by many people, to promote war and even ethnic cleansing by encouraging a lack of sympathy? what have these people got to say about it? the ones who say the holocaust was a huge lie by the elite who control the world - the evidence doesn't say they benefitted from "tricking the world" about the holocaust, does it - quite the opposite! they havent got anything to say because they think it's a good thing, they view this and hitler's other views as right and want it to happen again.

or the fact that immediately after one camp was liberated, allied soldiers left the camp in the hands of Ukrainian former SS officers for several weeks, which led to the massacre of tens of thousands of people? the fact that some polish anti-semites and fash collaborators killed thousands of Jews (and german civilians) after the war had "ended"? so many people have an interest in claiming these things never happened when they plainly did, and in blaming ONLY the germans!

or the christian groups who play up the homosexuals in the nazi party and accuse gay people remembering the atrocities as trying to "highjack" the holocaust to promote gay rights, and meanwhile deny that gay people were even targetted? this DENIAL helps them to promote a sick agenda of homophobia and it's in their interest to say that there was no policy of a homophobic nature and over-estimate the role of gay people in the nazi party. Blame the victims.

It's in many people's interest to try and downplay the holocaust and try and make out that their country didn't do anything wrong during the war, or to say that there wasn't a plan to kill certain people, or even that those people deserved it, and it was for "self defence" :mad:

Its not "harmless", its not "eccentric". it is downright dangerous and has been throughout the 60 years since the end of world war 2, TOO EASY to deny or even justify these things or attempt to carry on the murderous policy. This is especially true where gypsies are concerned. Its not the harmless eccentric ideas of a bumbling fool. it can be used and is used to justify and legitimise fascism and mass murder.
 
Some people, although nice in themselves, will remain forever hopelessly naive and susceptible to all sorts of daftness, if it makes them feel important and wanted.

nazi%20estupido%20.jpg

:D :(

David Cole is one of them ... the naive jewish kid who went around Auschwitz for a nazi group trying to claim that it was all a lie.

its tokenism. the fash welcome these kind of "useful idiots" because they know it makes them look marginally better
 
I can't think of anyone I've ever seen who is a consistent holocaust denier who really meets the "useful idiot" criteria. Some dim "mind so open the brain falls out" types do for a bit, sometimes, but even they either learn from the experience or just shut up and never mention it again; they're short-term useful idiots at best. Every other person, from the lowliest poster on a message board, always ends up either abandoning the whole thing in an embarrassed fashion or exposing some really naked anti-semitism. Very quickly.

It's just _too_ obvious that it's shite.
 
Interesting read on Lyndon La Rouche and Webster Tarpley Here's the http://www.justiceforjeremiah.com/ A young British Jewish 25yo, Jeremiah Duigan, who died in suspcious circumstances at a La Rouche conference.

LaRouche = a murdering, fascist bastard.

I've met Jeremiah Duggans mother. lovely, extroadinarily brave woman. the coverup by the german authorities is unbelievable, especailly given that it happened just a few years ago.
 
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