yeah i agree, the "healthy slaps" shit is out of order.
i avoided getting involved in this thread because jazzz is a mate of mine and i like him a lot, but the fact is jazzz you cannot defend nazis' and holocaust deniers, and as has been pointed out to you before by me and others, there are unfortunately a large number of people who believe in a Jewish conspiracy or they use people's legitimate questions about 9/11 (and I agree with you that there are some VERY dodgy things about it, even if my conclusions aren't the same as yours, necessarily) for their own ends.
it is frequently used to fuel propaganda against the jews. Not zionists. Jews.
forget what they say about "zionism" - it's pretty obvious when the word "zionism" is being used to refer to itself and when it is used to refer to Jews in general.
and this type of shit plays into the hands of people who would like to see any criticism of Israel and the zionist lobby labelled as anti-semites, because they know how repellent this stuff appears.
the fact is that this guy denies the holocaust and views it as a "zionist" plot. you cannot excuse it. you cannot justify it in anyway.
There are legitimate questions about the holocaust that I agree need to be asked. Yes there is evidence that SOME Jewish groups did collude with Nazis because either - they didnt really know what the Nazis were and regarded teh British as more their enemy in Palestine, and regarded establishing a totalitarian dictatorship in Israel as their ultimate goal.
And yes some Jews lived relatively untrobuled lives (my mates family was one of them) in Germany largely due to luck or circumstance. There were a few isolated cases of half Jewish people working in Nazi offices who were secular and didn't consider themselves Jewish. Had the war continued they would eventually have been next, despite the fact they escaped the Nazi bureaucracy.
Hitler's goal was to kill every Jew in the world. By the end of the war he'd killed about a third of the Jews in Europe.
And yes the fact that the profiteering activities of wealthy bankers and businessmen, some of them were Jewish, soe weren't, attracted a huge degree of resentment which led to Hitler's rise, but it was depicted as a Jewish plot in Nazi propaganda, helped gain support for the Nazis, needs to be discussed.
As does Dresden, the treaty of Versailles, the expulsion of millions of German refugees after the war, the fact that innocent German women were raped in their thousands as part of a deliberate policy when the Soviets occupied the country at the end of the war and, all the pre-war injustices against Germany that led to a perfect environment for someone like Hitler to take advantage. This stuff must be recognised without anyone accusing the person who raises it of anti-semitism or trying to "downplay the holocaust".
But this is not the same as denying the holocaust or blaming its victims for it in any way. JEWS WERE NOT TO BLAME. Zionists were not to blame either - they can be blamed for many, many other things, but NOT the holocaust. They may have colluded but they were NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT.
THE FASH WERE TO BLAME.
I personally think that if anything, the numbers killed in the holocaust were higher than what we're led to believe - and certainly it has been in the interests of many countries who colluded with Germany, like Austria and Romania, to downplay their role in it, downplay the numbers killed, and blame it all on Germany when those countries were quite happy to go along with the "evil Germans". The Romanian Nazi party took power and began a final solution of its own completely independently of Germany, which fought on the same side as it but never occupied it.
The Channel Islands, too - look at the Jews were deported from there, giving the lie to the fact that "Britain was standing alone against the Nazis". Like fuck it was. Denmark and Albania saved more people on their soil than the British did on theirs when it was occupied.
And for a long time it was denied that gypsies were the victims of a concerted extermination campaign like the Jews were. Why? Becuase the leaders of countries, especially in Eastern Europe, had a vested interest in denying the gypsies' plight. If they didn't, questions might have been asked about the policies of discrimination that were still in existence towards them and the fact that in many Eastern European countries they still live in ghetto like conditions.
And then there are things like Jasenovac and the atrocities of the croatian ustasha, which everyone "forgets" about. Why? Again because certain people have a vested interest in pretending it never happened or not mentioning it at all. Its easy to tell why that is, if you think about it!!
I suspect that the numbers killed in the holocaust are a lot higher than the official figures, NOT lower. I really do.
There is indisputable evidence of mass murder, gas chambers, trucks used to gas people, mass burial pits and many other horrors. They are still uncovering mass graves in Eastern Europe - the last one was a few years ago. And people want to deny it because they have political motives for doing so, because they think the holocaust was right, or because they think that anything "the west" says is bad was good or didn't happen at all - even though the USA was thinking of entering the war on Germany's side and people like Anthony Eden refused to let Jews into Britain during the war!! only a fucking cunt would deny the evidence of mass murder that is right in front of them and evidence that is covered up when it applies to certain groups, and which many governments refuse to recognise happened at all ...
Its not the same as questioning 9/11 don't you see that? Its not a harmless thing to do ! It's denying the murder of millions of innocent people for being Jews, homosexuals, Russians etc by the fash - if you deny that then you are saying that the fash weren't as bad as we all know they are. there is no reason to deny the holocaust apart from that.......................