Calais: Migration and the UK Border

[hot air baboon]

Also you would be surprised how much some people do know. We had a syrian client who lectured me about Nick Griffin's question time appearance (and agreed with him)

.....hasn't Griffin got form for playing at being a politician in places like Libya & Syria....not entirely inconceivable he may actually be the only UK politician besides Blair / Cameron some of those folks have ever heard of....

 

[DownwardDog]

Is the French government refusing asylum to the people at Calais?

France, in constrast with the UK, has a) contributions based benefits system b) ID cards and c) compulsory address registration.

 

[not-bono-ever]

decent posts frank- informative . Dare I say this, but you seeem to be maturing a shit load on this forum over the years - and I mean that in the most complimentary way. honest!

 

[not-bono-ever]

They also come to start small businesses..you could be surprised at who is driving your minicab too, might be a former government minister from a country whose economy has been trashed.

a mate - ex black cabbie- reiterated the urban myth that all asylum seekers AUTOMATICALLY get cab licences are part of their MASSIVE £££££ resettlement package when they arrive in the uk. I put him right pretty sharpish.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ok believe what you will..

TBF, the whole word of mouth thing only goes so far. A bigger drive factor historically than benefits and work has been the fact of possible citizenship. Bear in mInd that several of the economically more powerful EU states have a policy of making the route to citizenship so long and expensive that asylum seekers and "guest workers" are discouraged from taking it. I had Lebanese friends who, although French was their 2nd language, came here in the nineties because if they stayed, the chance of eventual British citizenship was much greater than French citizenship if they settled in France.

 

[DownwardDog]

TBF, the whole word of mouth thing only goes so far. A bigger drive factor historically than benefits and work has been the fact of possible citizenship. Bear in mInd that several of the economically more powerful EU states have a policy of making the route to citizenship so long and expensive that asylum seekers and "guest workers" are discouraged from taking it. I had Lebanese friends who, although French was their 2nd language, came here in the nineties because if they stayed, the chance of eventual British citizenship was much greater than French citizenship if they settled in France.

The path to become a naturalised citizen in France is now roughly the same as the UK - 5 years of continuous residence. Both my wife's parents became French citizens that way.

 

[FNG]

Ditto ^a Iranian friend, never spoke much about his time living in france except for it was 'horrible', had some cracking stories about his national service guarding trucks of cut ice transported down from the mountain to be used for the garrisons daily water ration,being so cold that when someone went off duty they'd crawl into bed next to someone else for warmth,waking up after one particularly cold night not able to move for so many bodies pinning him down.

Despite claiming asylum here,I don't think he was interested in full Citizenship, his dream was to someday return to Iran when the situation regarding Ahmadinejad improved.
He took it really badly when the Green revolution failed and he took to himself despite my best efforts to maintain contact.

 

[BigMoaner]

My intention with this thread is to highlight the consequences of the immigration policy we currently have, and the policies of the EU as a whole.

Whatever we think the consequences of changing those policies would be, the current situation is unacceptable. My personal position is that any system for controlling migration is both inherently racist and necessary for the maintenance of inequality, but I understand why people might some kind of middle ground between open borders and what we have now. An asylum system that was fit for purpose would be a very good start.

why on earth is wanting to restrict numbers of people coming into a country racist?

racism is believing there are biologically different races, and some are better than others.

what has that got to do with immigration policy?

 

[SpookyFrank]

why on earth is wanting to restrict numbers of people coming into a country racist?

racism is believing there are biologically different races, and some are better than others.

what has that got to do with immigration policy?

We allow Europeans come to this country indefinitely without a visa, while Arabs and Africans might find it impossible to get a visa even to visit.

Where you come from has a huge effect on where you can travel to and where you can live. It's the biggest single factor affecting your freedom of movement at an international level. How on earth is that situation not racist?

What's the largest group of illegal immigrants in the UK? Australians. Do you see home office campaigns focussed on driving out all the aussie visa overstayers? No, because they're too busy raiding chinatowns and African communities instead. Why is that do you think?

 

[SpookyFrank]

TBF, the whole word of mouth thing only goes so far. A bigger drive factor historically than benefits and work has been the fact of possible citizenship. Bear in mInd that several of the economically more powerful EU states have a policy of making the route to citizenship so long and expensive that asylum seekers and "guest workers" are discouraged from taking it. I had Lebanese friends who, although French was their 2nd language, came here in the nineties because if they stayed, the chance of eventual British citizenship was much greater than French citizenship if they settled in France.

One thing most migrants trying to get to the UK do seem to be aware of is that there are existing communities of just about every group of people you care to name in the UK.

It's not all gravy and roses for immigrants here in the UK, but it is better here than in much of the rest of the world, certainly most of the rest of Europe. Once upon a time that was something British people were generally proud of. I'd say it's about the last thing we still have to be proud of.

Some of the stories I've heard about how migrants are treated in our fellow EU states would make your blood run cold.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The path to become a naturalised citizen in France is now roughly the same as the UK - 5 years of continuous residence. Both my wife's parents became French citizens that way.

And it's been like that for about, IIRC, 7 years, same as Germany? And that only happened because both internal and external pressure got to the point where it was more politically-convenient to do it than not.

 

[ViolentPanda]

why on earth is wanting to restrict numbers of people coming into a country racist?

I don't have a clue how old you are (I'm on my half-century), but in my lifetime there's been a trend that's always been noticeable from my perch in working class south London, and that's a trend where if you're white and an immigrant, you get a smoother ride than if you're non-white and an immigrant, so when we're talking about restrictions, we're not talking about an even playing field restricting all immigration, we invariably mean "restricting immigration of non-whites and/or people who aren't immediately useful to us". Now, that is racist. It's "the system" being racist, because the structures that govern immigration are...wait for it...institutionally racist.

racism is believing there are biologically different races, and some are better than others.

That's a definition of racism, sure. A more coherent one would be to say that it's the practice of discrimination against people depending on their ethnicity. "Racism" is an easy label to apply, but it's more of a shorthand for a whole complex set of ideas nowadays than your definition implies.

what has that got to do with immigration policy?

You tell me! It's not difficult to discern if you think about it, even for a Lion!

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

We allow Europeans come to this country indefinitely without a visa, while Arabs and Africans might find it impossible to get a visa even to visit.

Where you come from has a huge effect on where you can travel to and where you can live. It's the biggest single factor affecting your freedom of movement at an international level. How on earth is that situation not racist?

You really think that it's about people's race? Of course it isn't.

There are many countries outside of Europe that we would need a visa to visit and would find it almost impossible to get a visa to stay over to reside or work.

Even for India, we need a visa to visit the place, yet they don't need a visa to visit the UK. Unfair? Yes. Racist against Europeans? No.

Pakistan for example, it's impossible for any of us to live or work there - there is no immigration into Pakistan...period. Unfair? Yes. Racist? No.

Japan. Almost impossible for anyone outside of Japan to get a right to reside. Unfair? Possibly. Racist? No.

There is a reason why someone opposed to mass immigration wants the UK to pull out of EU...it gives us the chance to halt the whole bloody lot without anyone implying that the UK is racist.

What's the largest group of illegal immigrants in the UK? Australians. Do you see home office campaigns focussed on driving out all the aussie visa overstayers? No, because they're too busy raiding chinatowns and African communities instead. Why is that do you think?

There is no "Aussie town" in London, the Aussies could be working absolutely anywhere. A raid on a place like Chinatown would be low hanging fruit for the Border Service (or whatever they are called these days.)

Also, an Australian at some point is going back home. They aren't staying here so they can send money back home, they are overstaying because it's very much fun and they don't want to go home just yet...but they will...because they'll be missing family and friends.

So getting back to it - it's money. We all know the reason why people risk life and limb to come here...is for better economic prospects.

We all would migrate if we could. If I could land a job in the U.S. or Switzerland for 4 times as much, I'd be off...if they would have me...but if they won't have me...well...I have to respect that.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Pakistan for example, it's impossible for any of us to live or work there - there is no immigration into Pakistan...period.

I have friends from the UK who are living and working in Pakistan.

 

[SpookyFrank]

So getting back to it - it's money. We all know the reason why people risk life and limb to come here...is for better economic prospects.

We don't all know that, in fact many of us know for a fact that it's a load of bollocks. Would you risk your life for better economic prospects? I wouldn't, I'd rather be broke and still alive thanks.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

I have friends who are living and working in Pakistan.

Fair enough, but my point stands - there are many countries outside the EU that we simply can't just migrate to.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

We don't all know that, in fact many of us know for a fact that it's a load of bollocks. Would you risk your life for better economic prospects? I wouldn't, I'd rather be broke and still alive thanks.

They are broke and alive in France...yet they still risk their lives. Of course not all would do that, but some are.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Fair enough, but my point stands - there are many countries outside the EU that we simply can't just migrate to.

A British passport allows you to travel to 173 countries without applying for a visa.

With an Eritrean passport (Eritreans are one of the main groups of people trying to enter the UK illegally through Calais) you can travel to just 36 countries without applying for a visa.

http://www.ibtimes.com/best-passports-have-unrestricted-travel-around-world-1422038

 

[SpookyFrank]

They are broke and alive in France...yet they still risk their lives. Of course not all would do that, but some are.

The ones who are alive are still alive yes. Many others are not. At least 15 migrants died in Calais alone in 2014. I'm sure you've heard about the many thousands who have drowned in the Mediterranean trying to reach Europe, and the hundreds of others who have only narrowly avoided the same fate in just the last week. The risk of death is not a trivial one.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Right, that's enough troll-feeding, anyone else have a serious question?

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

A British passport allows you to travel to 173 countries without applying for a visa.

With an Eritrean passport (Eritreans are one of the main groups of people trying to enter the UK illegally through Calais) you can travel to just 36 countries without applying for a visa.

http://www.ibtimes.com/best-passports-have-unrestricted-travel-around-world-1422038

Yep. That's the way that it normally works. It's one of the poorest countries on the planet, therefore we're talking about economic migration.

Nothing to do with race at all.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

The ones who are alive are still alive yes. Many others are not. At least 15 migrants died in Calais alone in 2014. I'm sure you've heard about the many thousands who have drowned in the Mediterranean trying to reach Europe, and the hundreds of others who have only narrowly avoided the same fate in just the last week. The risk of death is not a trivial one.

So tell me. Why are they risking their lives to come here?

 

[SpookyFrank]

It's one of the poorest countries on the planet, therefore we're talking about economic migration.

Also one of the most repressive countries on Earth, but I'm sure that's not a factor at all

 

[SpookyFrank]

So tell me. Why are they risking their lives to come here?

Lots of people, lots of different reasons. Some people have more than one reason, if you can believe that. An even greater risk of death if they stay in their home countries is a fairly common one. You can presumably see why factors besides economics might induce someone to leave, for example, Syria?

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

Also one of the most repressive countries on Earth, but I'm sure that's not a factor at all

Do you really think that country after country doesn't want these people because:

A) They're not white European.
B) They come from a country with an oppressive regime.
C) They are piss poor...and fuck me...if we let some in...it will never end.

It's C - rightly or wrongly. But nothing to do with racism.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

Lots of people, lots of different reasons. Some people have more than one reason, if you can believe that. An even greater risk of death if they stay in their home countries is a fairly common one. You can presumably see why factors besides economics might induce someone to leave, for example, Syria?

There is no direct flights from Syria to Britain. You admitted yourself that they get a better deal here than in other European countries.

So again, it's not about a desire to live, but a desire to have something better.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Do you really think that country after country doesn't want these people because:

A) They're not white European.
B) They come from a country with an oppressive regime.
C) They are piss poor...and fuck me...if we let some in...it will never end.

It's C - rightly or wrongly. But nothing to do with racism.

The world isn't multiple choice. If you think racism is not a factor in how migrants are treated in European countries then you evidently have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

The world isn't multiple choice. If you think racism is not a factor in how migrants are treated in European countries then you evidently have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Oh dear oh dear oh dear, you are flip flopping all over the place.

That's not the original claim that you made. You attacked the fact that citizens of certain non European countries would need visas to visit European countries, as somehow racist.

It has been pointed out to you the reasoning behind such policies, now you're flip flopping into the realm of how non European illegals / asylum seekers are treated by various officials once they are here - that's an entirely different thing altogether.

Fuck me, a pack of racist French cops fucking about with a bunch of migrants should not dictate UK immigration policy.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Can someone else talk to this fuckwit now please? I'm out.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

Can someone else talk to this fuckwit now please? I'm out.

So you can't prove your allegation that it's somehow racist to have citizens from poorer countries outside the EU apply for visas before visiting the EU?