Bitcoin discussion and news

[RedSkin]

Thankyou

 

[RedSkin]

Three posts in twelve hours after notching up just 256 in fourteen years - that's practically a binge!

Yeah got decent itnet access on my fond. Bit of a curse really tho

 

[butchersapron]

I've just finished this short book The Politics of Bitcoin: Software as Right-Wing Extremism By David Golumbia. It's a useful read, the first half especially where he establishes that bitcoin isn't a neutral tool that just happens to attract far-righters but that the very foundational assumptions of the project are far-right and there's no way of escaping it no matter what you claim your personal politics are. 2nd half relies too much on failed economic orthodoxies and statism. There is a much expanded version on the way. Brief bit of blarney about this one here:

But when we read closely what Bitcoin promoters say, and when we examine how the software itself works, we find that the system is predicated on economic and political theories that directly emerge from such far-right groups as the John Birch Society and the Cato Institute. These groups mean something very different by words like “democracy” and “freedom” than the rest of us usually do, because — as hard as it may be for others to get their heads around this — they consider democratic government itself to be inherently antidemocratic.

When we look at it closely, Bitcoin’s actual successes in doing what it claims to do are few and far between. But it has been remarkably successful at spreading far-right political and economic views outside of the places they are usually found, and frequently stripped of context. Bitcoin can therefore be seen as a tool for spreading those ideas in a new way.

 

[Idaho]

Had a skim. Seems to be at least 3 scare quotes on every page.

Sort of shooting fish in a barrel isn't it? Bitcoiners are disproportionately either loonies or libertarian nutters. That said, the original rationale was more of a thought experiment - and to see it as a right wing conspiracy whilst mocking Bitcoiners for being conspiraloons is a bit rich.

 

[butchersapron]

The book doesn't mock bitcoiners for being conspiraloons - it outlines the right wing anti-democratic extreme elitist nature of the leading arguments in behind its development adoption and promotion and their historical precedents in the far-right. It similarly doesn't argue that it's growth is a right-wing conspiracy but again, that the principles behind it (the extreme monetarism, the supply of money etc) are products of the historical far-right and demonstrates how this is the case.

 

[Idaho]

Yeah I don't think anyone would dispute that the gold standard/monetarist stuff is from the right. Who else would champion a novel kind of money? The left wouldn't have a clue and the establishment already have plenty of normal money.

 

[camouflage]

Yeah I don't think anyone would dispute that the gold standard/monetarist stuff is from the right. Who else would champion a novel kind of money? The left wouldn't have a clue and the establishment already have plenty of normal money.

extra point for "the establishment already have plenty of normal money."

 

[J Ed]

I've just finished this short book The Politics of Bitcoin: Software as Right-Wing Extremism By David Golumbia. It's a useful read, the first half especially where he establishes that bitcoin isn't a neutral tool that just happens to attract far-righters but that the very foundational assumptions of the project are far-right and there's no way of escaping it no matter what you claim your personal politics are. 2nd half relies too much on failed economic orthodoxies and statism. There is a much expanded version on the way. Brief bit of blarney about this one here:

Did you hear the Henwood interview with the author?

 

[butchersapron]

Did you hear the Henwood interview with the author?

I did yeah, didn't really talk much about the far-right stuff which is what i'm interested in. Would have been better if he'd ran with the Eustace Mullins stuff that Henwood was prompting him with, really pulled at the threads connecting him/them to the modern stuff.

 

[Idaho]

While bitcoin certainly gives a very particular demographic of libertarian a raging boner - I don't think it's a particularly powerful tool of right wing domination. I'm not suggesting ignoring this context, and ignoring the political slant of the people running bitcoin. I think that their understanding of how what they created will really pan out is not likely to be accurate. Just as I would likely doubt this author's predictions (if he makes any).

 

[butchersapron]

If only there were some methods through which you could find out what he actually says.

 

[Idaho]

The method is known to me - the spare time less so. If it was put out as an audio book, I would listen and give you a more measured opinion - but I'm guessing it isn't.

 

[camouflage]

Well it's nice to see interesting conversations on this area of open-source fintech finally starting to appear on the Left, moving beyond "it's just funny money init, lol".

Crypto is definitely very Libertarian, dunno if the term Far Right is helpful here as it evokes images of White Nationalists and Nazi's and the like. No doubt there are people who hold those kinds of views in the mix too but the term Far Right would only confuse the Libertarian popularity of the technology (pot-smoking conservatives, gold-fetishists, anti-gubmint/"welfare is theft" types).

I've not read the article posted by apron yet but I think Liertarian-bitcoiners and the actual Far Right (at least as we understand the term in Europe) would soon part ways on economic thinking, the Far Right at heart doesn't have a problem with The State as a concept does it? Or with The State ruling the economy with an iron fist "for the greater good of the Master Race!!1! indigenous people of this country."

Bitcoiners are metallists gone cyber with a kind of internet-transmittable gold, with strong streaks of a kind of misanthropy obsessed about dispensing with the role for Trust or Government or Other People with a side order of regular American "anti-welfarism because black folk" probably. The usual Libertarian type issues really. More useful to refer to the USG as a fascist organisation more often tbh, and even doing that isn't all that useful in my opinion.

 

[butchersapron]

What would it take to get people to read the book linked or listen to the audio linked - before commenting - i wonder?

 

[Convention]

Just read the first three chapters of the book, it seems very well argued and thought out.

 

[Idris2002]

What would it take to get people to read the book linked or listen to the audio linked - before commenting - i wonder?

In Auckland one time I hit the wrong button on the keyboard and an electronic voice started reading aloud the PDF I had open at the time.

 

[butchersapron]

He could do that, whilst milking the poppies.

 

[Idaho]

Did you hear the Henwood interview with the author?

Had a listen.

I don't disagree that the bitcoin fan boys are nuts. Or that the currency was devised as a libertarian experiment by crazy people. Or that both founders and proponents have ridiculous and contradictory ideas for the future of the world. I just think that they aren't that relevant. I think the experiment is interesting and will have unpredictable results that have little relation to the original intentions.

This analysis seems to ignore the experiment itself and fixate on the motivation and personalities - possibly because they don't have any real insight.

 

[Idaho]

Blockchain is a very interesting innovation that has a number of political applications. It could be used to structure a complex and pervasive direct democracy (the kind often proposed by the left). You could create a public, uncorruptable ledger of votes - and could create tiers of voting, delegating particular issues and keeping others for personal voting.

 

[mauvais]

Blockchain is a very interesting innovation that has a number of political applications. It could be used to structure a complex and pervasive direct democracy (the kind often proposed by the left). You could create a public, uncorruptable ledger of votes - and could create tiers of voting, delegating particular issues and keeping others for personal voting.

Blockchain might play a part in this but it alone doesn't deliver an answer, or even a full umbrella architecture. For example, in system terms, how do you become eligible to vote?

 

[kabbes]

What would it take to get people to read the book linked or listen to the audio linked - before commenting - i wonder?

I'll read it if you like this post.

 

[kabbes]

I download the TED talks for my commute and there was this interesting one regarding the potential possibilities of blockchains beyond cash money.

Don Tapscott: How the blockchain is changing money and business | TED Talk | TED.com

 

[kabbes]

That's a deal.

 

[Idaho]

Blockchain might play a part in this but it alone doesn't deliver an answer, or even a full umbrella architecture. For example, in system terms, how do you become eligible to vote?

Maybe the block reward produces new entitlements?

 

[butchersapron]

View attachment 94072
That's a deal.

if i was you i'd just read the first 1/2ish of this short one and wait for the full expanded book - the bits where he tries on the actual economics rather than their provenance is not really worth the candle.

Good move on the screenshot btw. Top of your game this early - v good.

 

[kabbes]

proof is proof for all time.

I've downloaded it onto my tablet. So that's chapters 1-3 then, you are recommending?

 

[butchersapron]

proof is proof for all time.

I've downloaded it onto my tablet. So that's chapters 1-3 then, you are recommending?

+4

 

[mauvais]

Maybe the block reward produces new entitlements?

Not sure that means anything.

I mean, if you were to embark on setting up a blockchain-based electoral system for the UK, how you would give the right people eligibility to vote? They have to get credentials from somewhere else, so now your accountable, incorruptible (always dangerous) idea has a big dent in it. Plus if you want to subvert it you just subvert the clients or their client environments - i.e. hijack voters' terminals.

It adds some degree of transparency within some parameters but it's far from obvious that it's useful overall.

 

[butchersapron]

The left's critique analysis of capitalism isn't based on voting/fair voting. I think idaho is talking about after all the structural stuff that it is about has been sorted out.

 

[Idaho]

It would take a lot more thought by cleverer people - saying that the whole concept lives or dies by my feeble offerings is a bit harsh.