Bitcoin discussion and news

[gosub]

"Audit Is Meaningless"- Michael Burry On Binance And FTX

Binance chief CZ recently stated that auditing firms don't know how to properly audit crypto exchanges, crypto users, etc.

www.google.com

Even if they did know what they were dealing with, regulation only works on the honest, if you're a crook regulation is at best an inconvenience

 

[pbsmooth]

"Please don't poke our house of cards"

 

[Supine]

Blah blah smart contracts blah blah

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

FTX had everything to with crypto because that’s what they were selling - the crypto dream!

No, they werent, they really weren't. Like I said about 50 pages back, anyone that was serious about crypto wouldnt have touched FTX with a bargepole. They were selling the fiat dream. People put fiat money into ftx in the hope of getting more fiat money out than they put in.

See this is one of the most frustrating things about talking to non-bitcoiners. They really believe that bitcoiners are only interested in bitcoin because it will generate them fiat money. Bitcoiners are interested in bitcoin to destroy fiat money, not collect more of it.

 

[Supine]

Bitcoiners are interested in bitcoin to destroy fiat money, not collect more of it.

Fascinating. I watch with interest. Well, not much interest tbh. Such a crazy idea.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

“Non-Bitcoiners”

 

[Storm Fox]

“Non-Bitcoiners”

Back to the No True Bitcoiner fallacy.
It's too slow, too volatile, and way too energy intensive. A libertarian idea that if it becomes popular, the poor and underprivileged would suffer and at best, be at the mercy of the charity of the rich.

Libertarian ideas have always failed as the people who think there are at the top have no consideration of the work done by maintenance staff as things for them just appear to work.

See also Musk, Elon.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

“Non-Bitcoiners”

They are usually called "no-coiners" but that tends to wind people up.

 

[magneze]

Any interesting developments since Etherium switch to proof of stake?

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

A libertarian idea that if it becomes popular, the poor and underprivileged would suffer and at best, be at the mercy of the charity of the rich.

Have you seen the state of the world recently?
Cos from where I'm standing it doesnt look like some kind of egalitarian paradise.
The largest growth in bitcoin use is precisely among the "poor and underprivilaged".
The rich arent the ones that are buying groceries with bitcoin because they cant get a bank account or storing their savings in bitcoin because their country;s inflation is running at +50%, they rich are the ones who benefit from fiat's cantillion effect, because they are the ones closest to its source of generation.

The three countries with the largest crypto use in 2022 are Vietnam, the Phillipines, and Ukraine, in that order; 32% of Nigerians use crypto, 21% of vietnamese. Is this all just charity from the rich?

Libertarian ideas have always failed as the people who think there are at the top have no consideration of the work done by maintenance staff as things for them just appear to work.

Maintainance technicians at mining plants tend to be paid a premium relative to similar roles in other industries.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Any interesting developments since Etherium switch to proof of stake?

Its turning into regfi.
Most of the very large stakers who are validating the ethereum network are complying with US sanctions. Last I saw it was about 81% of transactions were going through a censoring validator. There will always be autonomous ones of course that wont comply, but it doesnt look good. Binance is looking shaky at the moment tho, so fingers crossed that domino will fall next.

 

[magneze]

regfi?

 

[Storm Fox]

Have you seen the state of the world recently?
Cos from where I'm standing it doesnt look like some kind of egalitarian paradise.
The largest growth in bitcoin use is precisely among the "poor and underprivilaged".
The rich arent the ones that are buying groceries with bitcoin because they cant get a bank account or storing their savings in bitcoin because their country;s inflation is running at +50%, they rich are the ones who benefit from fiat's cantillion effect, because they are the ones closest to its source of generation.

The three countries with the largest crypto use in 2022 are Vietnam, the Phillipines, and Ukraine, in that order; 32% of Nigerians use crypto, 21% of vietnamese. Is this all just charity from the rich?

Maintainance technicians at mining plants tend to be paid a premium relative to similar roles in other industries.

You stated that "Bitcoiners are interested in bitcoin to destroy fiat money, not collect more of it." when that happens the government cannot effectively collect taxes so state support systems won't work. If it can then there is little point it above being speculative assest.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

regfi?

Regfi = regulated finance

Contrast with
Tradfi = traditional finance
Cefi = centralised finance (eg FTX, Binance, Coinbase)
Defi = decentralised finance (eg MakerDAO, Uniswap, Compound)

 

[StakerOne]

Regfi = regulated finance

Contrast with
Tradfi = traditional finance
Cefi = centralised finance (eg FTX, Binance, Coinbase)
Defi = decentralised finance (eg MakerDAO, Uniswap, Compound)

On Ethereum, relays that censor are on a downward trend. They peaked at 79%. More an more neutral relays are coming online so in percentage terms, less relays censor. Let's keep it in perspective. It doesn't matter how many relays won't process your transaction, other relays will process your transaction and your transaction gets processed.

 

[t0bytoo]

No, they werent, they really weren't. Like I said about 50 pages back, anyone that was serious about crypto wouldnt have touched FTX with a bargepole. They were selling the fiat dream. People put fiat money into ftx in the hope of getting more fiat money out than they put in.

See this is one of the most frustrating things about talking to non-bitcoiners. They really believe that bitcoiners are only interested in bitcoin because it will generate them fiat money. Bitcoiners are interested in bitcoin to destroy fiat money, not collect more of it.

Really, I get the difference. The crypto dream to which I refer is what drove people to gamble their paycheques in the hopes of making fiat money. It’s not the same as a the crypto utopia to which you are subscribed.

 

[BristolEcho]

Have you seen the state of the world recently?
Cos from where I'm standing it doesnt look like some kind of egalitarian paradise.
The largest growth in bitcoin use is precisely among the "poor and underprivilaged".
The rich arent the ones that are buying groceries with bitcoin because they cant get a bank account or storing their savings in bitcoin because their country;s inflation is running at +50%, they rich are the ones who benefit from fiat's cantillion effect, because they are the ones closest to its source of generation.

The three countries with the largest crypto use in 2022 are Vietnam, the Phillipines, and Ukraine, in that order; 32% of Nigerians use crypto, 21% of vietnamese. Is this all just charity from the rich?

Maintainance technicians at mining plants tend to be paid a premium relative to similar roles in other industries.

Do you have a breakdown of the economic class of the people in those countries that use crypto? I'd be interested to see it. Also what it's being used for?

Most of the people I know here using it are largely using it for speculation and are economically secure. Home owners with expendable money. The couple I've come across who were quite poor also happened to be vulnerable and wrapped up in all sorts of conspiracy stuff. Very small sample sizes though so not sure I can learn much from that.

 

[MrCurry]

Interesting to see how the whole SBF thing is being viewed outwith crypto circles.

Firstly, the SBF fraud has surprisingly little to do with crypto. His foundational scam was diverting fiat money that people sent FTX thinking they were buying bitcoin or ethereum with it to an Alameda slush fund

Secondly, the sheer extent of this fraud - not only in monetary terms - but also in its transparency is phenomenal. Its worth reading the initial report from the replacement CEO - key quote "Never in my career have I seen such an utter failure of corporate controls at every level of an organization, from the lack of financial statements to a complete failure of any internal controls or governance whatsoever". (This is the guy who dealt with the Enron bankrupcy). The details of it are shocking, no accountant; no board of directors, no list of employees, people paid by emojis, auditor based in the metaverse! This was not clever well concealed syphoning.

Third, it all took place right under the noses of regulators and journos. FTX was incorporated under multiple jurisdictions which require significant complience, he was all over the mainstream media as an autistic savaunt wonderboy who was going to save the world out of the goodness of his heart. He met with the Head of the SEC at least twice, as well as the chair of the Financial Services Committee several times. SBF was literally writing the rules on how crypto should be regulated, rules that are still on the table.

Fourth, there were very generous donations made to Dem politicians, he was Bidens second largest donor. He also gave generously to the police force of the Bahamas. There is also the whole involvement in the Ukraine donations.

Fifth - tether. Lots and lots of tether. Tonnes of tether. Where there is tether there is fraud.

My personal opinion is that FTX was always designed to implode, it just did so earlier than expected, prior to the regulations being in place that would bail it out and serve as justification for a crackdown on crypto.

Its worth noting that the only entities that had dealings with FTX at the time of its exposure that recovered their funds without resorting to bribery or hacking were defi protocols built on smart contracts, because you cannot syphon funds from a properly written smart contract. FTX demonstrated the power of crypto to protect people from fraudulent entities, and the weakness of the political, legal and regulatory system designed for that purpose.

Where are the crypto forums / community sites from which this kind of analysis emerges? I mean no disrespect to yourself, I know you’re a smart guy, but I doubt that such a thorough distancing of the FTX debacle from the crypto world gets formulated without the involvement of the group think of lots of pro-crypto people.

I’m not saying you didn’t write the above from your own thoughts, but you’re surely strongly influenced by reading crypto discussion groups and I’m wondering where I might find such places as it would be very interesting to see how the “other side“ thinks.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

the government cannot effectively collect taxes so state support systems won't work.

Did I not mention that we plan to destroy the nation state as well?

Lets break this down.

• the government
  which government? There are hundred of governments.
  
  
• cannot effectively collect taxes
  panama papers?
  
  
• state support systems wont work
  A flippant response is that I dont want to support the state any more.
  
  however...I take it you mean things like benefits, the NHS, pensions...the nice bits of state provision that we generally want to see more of, rather than the military, police and the rest of the repressive infrastructure of the state.
  
  Public goods funding on a global scale is one of the key challenges that crypto is solving. We simply cannot continue in siloed geographies any longer. We have to coordinate public goods at a global level because many of the public goods that we need - clean air, clean water, high quality soil are things that simply cannot be provided by nation states competing against one another. The age of the nation state is passed, we cant continue to pretend that things that we do here dont have global ramifications. We need global public goods, provided by a global monetary system based on energy rather than violence.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Fucking hell

 

[Storm Fox]

Did I not mention that we plan to destroy the nation state as well?

Lets break this down.

• the government
  which government? There are hundred of governments.
  
  
• cannot effectively collect taxes
  panama papers?
  
  
• state support systems wont work
  A flippant response is that I dont want to support the state any more.
  
  however...I take it you mean things like benefits, the NHS, pensions...the nice bits of state provision that we generally want to see more of, rather than the military, police and the rest of the repressive infrastructure of the state.
  
  Public goods funding on a global scale is one of the key challenges that crypto is solving. We simply cannot continue in siloed geographies any longer. We have to coordinate public goods at a global level because many of the public goods that we need - clean air, clean water, high quality soil are things that simply cannot be provided by nation states competing against one another. The age of the nation state is passed, we cant continue to pretend that things that we do here dont have global ramifications. We need global public goods, provided by a global monetary system based on energy rather than violence.

It's not going to happen.
If it does it will lead to more atomisation of power, not less. Take the last 7000-odd years of human history as an example. Once the state is gone we will be left with digital warlords and a new feudalism.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Do you have a breakdown of the economic class of the people in those countries that use crypto? I'd be interested to see it. Also what it's being used for?

I dont, if I were to take a guess, I'd suggest upper working/lower middle. I think there is probably a bigger difference in age than economic class.

Most of the people I know here using it are largely using it for speculation and are economically secure. Home owners with expendable money. The couple I've come across who were quite poor also happened to be vulnerable and wrapped up in all sorts of conspiracy stuff. Very small sample sizes though so not sure I can learn much from that.

Yes, I think thats true in the West, where people dont actually use bitcoin/crypto much, they just buy and sell it. Outside the west tho, bitcoin is valued a lot more for its properties than for its fiat value alone. The fact that you dont need a bank account or ID which can be difficult to come by, you dont need approval to use it means that many more people can access it, and its more secure than cash. Its also very simple to send remittances with - you can send small (or even large) amounts bitcoin for pennies instantly anywhere in the world without identity checks, banks accounts etc, means that ex-pats from third world countries working in the West for higher, but sometimes under the table, wages can send money back to their families without jumping through hoops or paying through the nose for that service.

Where are the crypto forums / community sites from which this kind of analysis emerges? I mean no disrespect to yourself, I know you’re a smart guy, but I doubt that such a thorough distancing of the FTX debacle from the crypto world gets formulated without the involvement of the group think of lots of pro-crypto people.

I’m not saying you didn’t write the above from your own thoughts, but you’re surely strongly influenced by reading crypto discussion groups and I’m wondering where I might find such places as it would be very interesting to see how the “other side“ thinks.

Good lord, no - I didnt work all this out by myself.

Most discussion tends to take place within DAOs on discord, influenced by articles or podcasts. There isnt really a crypto equivalent of U75 that I know of, except perhaps Bitcoin Talk, but tbh, its been getting shittier for years (good source of mining info, but not much good for anything else now). Crypto-twitter is probably the central hub, you just have to navigate your way around all the "crypto will make you a millionaire" trash first, there is a bit of a move towards Lens Protocol, esp now that twitter is a binfire. A lot of the serious writing happens on Mirror (web3 equivalent of Medium), the journal of Crypto, Culture and Society is worth a look at.

Thing is crypto is so much bigger and diverse than I think most people here imagine. Its like an iceberg- the stuff above the surface is all "trade your way to $1m in 3 weeks!!!" and "join this awesome crypto scheme and make $1000 per day!!!", underneath that surface there is a tonne of stuff happening, hundreds of thousands of DAOs springing up trying to solve every problem imaginable. Most will fail, but that failure is what teaches us what to avoid when we build back better.

 

[pbsmooth]

Back in the real world... Devs deserting blockchain projects no doubt to work in AI or back to the big boys with actual revenue.

 

[MrCurry]

I dont, if I were to take a guess, I'd suggest upper working/lower middle. I think there is probably a bigger difference in age than economic class.

Yes, I think thats true in the West, where people dont actually use bitcoin/crypto much, they just buy and sell it. Outside the west tho, bitcoin is valued a lot more for its properties than for its fiat value alone. The fact that you dont need a bank account or ID which can be difficult to come by, you dont need approval to use it means that many more people can access it, and its more secure than cash. Its also very simple to send remittances with - you can send small (or even large) amounts bitcoin for pennies instantly anywhere in the world without identity checks, banks accounts etc, means that ex-pats from third world countries working in the West for higher, but sometimes under the table, wages can send money back to their families without jumping through hoops or paying through the nose for that service.

Good lord, no - I didnt work all this out by myself.

Most discussion tends to take place within DAOs on discord, influenced by articles or podcasts. There isnt really a crypto equivalent of U75 that I know of, except perhaps Bitcoin Talk, but tbh, its been getting shittier for years (good source of mining info, but not much good for anything else now). Crypto-twitter is probably the central hub, you just have to navigate your way around all the "crypto will make you a millionaire" trash first, there is a bit of a move towards Lens Protocol, esp now that twitter is a binfire. A lot of the serious writing happens on Mirror (web3 equivalent of Medium), the journal of Crypto, Culture and Society is worth a look at.

Thing is crypto is so much bigger and diverse than I think most people here imagine. Its like an iceberg- the stuff above the surface is all "trade your way to $1m in 3 weeks!!!" and "join this awesome crypto scheme and make $1000 per day!!!", underneath that surface there is a tonne of stuff happening, hundreds of thousands of DAOs springing up trying to solve every problem imaginable. Most will fail, but that failure is what teaches us what to avoid when we build back better.

Thanks. First few posts I read on the Bitcoin forum were someone wanting to meet face to face to buy 1-2BTC and someone else wanting advice on how to avoid getting taxed on their gain…. but that’s forums I guess.

I take your point you need to sift thru the scammers and get rich quick stuff to get to the interesting and innovative stuff. Will take a look at mirror.

 

[NoXion]

Funny how crypto and NFT stuff is so attractive to scammers and other people looking for a quick buck. Almost as if there are reasons inherent to the entire exercise.

 

[gosub]

Funny how crypto and NFT stuff is so attractive to scammers and other people looking for a quick buck. Almost as if there are reasons inherent to the entire

It's wild west coz its 'new'. Not quite understanding the bitching at regulation, that's the next development stage...you clear out the hustlers and gunslingers so settlers can tame land and make safe for mass adoption....

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

On Ethereum, relays that censor are on a downward trend. They peaked at 79%. More an more neutral relays are coming online so in percentage terms, less relays censor. Let's keep it in perspective. It doesn't matter how many relays won't process your transaction, other relays will process your transaction and your transaction gets processed.

I love your optimism.

79% is huge tho given that no action has thus far been taken against validators and that cloud service providers are not censoring. That may not continue, its true that you will eventually get a transaction through on Eth, but higher volumes, a showcase prosecution and changes to Terms of Service from cloud providers and you could see very long wait times or substantial gas premiums required for censored transactions.

Funny how crypto and NFT stuff is so attractive to scammers and other people looking for a quick buck. Almost as if there are reasons inherent to the entire exercise.

Scammers and people looking for a quick buck go together like peas and carrots.

Why do people scam? Because people are untrustworthy, some of those untrustworthy people are very clever.
Why do people want to make a quick buck? Because people are ignorant, some of those ignorant people are very trusting.
A trusting mark and a clever scammer are a match made in heaven.

Bitcoin is incredibly unforgiving to human flaws...and we all have them.

I usually tell people that the most important thing to remember in bitcoin is "not your keys, not your coins", but there is a more fundamental thing that everyone should learn, only it never goes down well, because in addition to being untrustworthy and ignorant, people are also prideful.

The mistakes that you make are your own, unless you own them and correct them, you will continue making them. People want others to blame - a scammer, a wallet provider, a dodgy website etc or even bitcoin itself, but losing bitcoin doesnt expose a flaw in bitcoin, it exposes a flaw in yourself - whether thats greed, stupidity, naivity. Once you recognise your flaws, you can mitigate them, if you continue to believe that you are not the problem and the problem is bitcoin, the real problem never gets addressed.

 

[StakerOne]

I love your optimism.

79% is huge tho given that no action has thus far been taken against validators and that cloud service providers are not censoring. That may not continue, its true that you will eventually get a transaction through on Eth, but higher volumes, a showcase prosecution and changes to Terms of Service from cloud providers and you could see very long wait times or substantial gas premiums required for censored transactions.

Scammers and people looking for a quick buck go together like peas and carrots.

Why do people scam? Because people are untrustworthy, some of those untrustworthy people are very clever.
Why do people want to make a quick buck? Because people are ignorant, some of those ignorant people are very trusting.
A trusting mark and a clever scammer are a match made in heaven.

Bitcoin is incredibly unforgiving to human flaws...and we all have them.

I usually tell people that the most important thing to remember in bitcoin is "not your keys, not your coins", but there is a more fundamental thing that everyone should learn, only it never goes down well, because in addition to being untrustworthy and ignorant, people are also prideful.
And that is that the mistakes that you make ar

Yiu seem to think action against validstors are the only actions on the table.

Validstors use all sorts of services including those those that maximase profits.

It's those services and not the actual node validstors that are causing problems.

So in percentage terms there is less censorship going on day by day.

Some cloud services are bound to change their ToS. So what? That would affect badly written DAPPS and the sooner that happenes the better it would be for Ethereum and other blockchains.

 

[kabbes]

And that is that the mistakes that you make ar

Oh dear. Does anybody else get the feeling that qwerty made one mistake too many…?

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

It's wild west coz its 'new'. Not quite understanding the bitching at regulation, that's the next development stage...you clear out the hustlers and gunslingers so settlers can tame land and make safe for mass adoption....

Its not that new - bitcoin has been around for well over a decade now.
The problem with regulation is who writes it and who enforces it.

• Alexey Pertsev is currently in jail awaiting extradition to the US because he wrote code that the US government later decided it didnt like.
• Virgil Griffith is in jail with a sentance of 5 years for teaching people that the US didnt like how to use bitcoin.
• Ross Ulbricht is in jail on a life sentance for allowing people to safely buy things that the US didnt like.