Bitcoin discussion and news

[gosub]

Bitcoin's immutable hard coded policy is distributed, yes. Whether you like it or not is up to you, but at least you can trust that it won't be changed on a whim.
How's your trust going with the government and central bankers?

That my friend is called politics in a democracy.
As to bitcoin as a financial instrument....seems whati it's for and how that works is what changes on a whim.

Not knocking it entirely, useful learning curve . But it's a bit like London Underground. Other cities ended up with better systems, off the lessons learned in building that one. Not that I'm slagging off the tube and it does have some fascinating stories

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

FWIW Bitcoin has fallen 6.5% against the USD since three o'clock this afternoon. I'm not quite convinced it's crowing time just yet for the cryptotwats.

 

[NoXion]

Bitcoin's immutable hard coded policy

This is a fucking stupid idea to start with. The economy as well as the wider world in general is subject to change, it's not a static thing but is instead a whole collection of "things" which are constantly evolving. Given such circumstances, being chained to immutable policy is the dumbest fucking thing ever. Imagine if interest rates (or whatever else) couldn't be adjusted to suit the currently prevailing conditions.

How's your trust going with the government and central bankers?

If the majority of my assets had been tied up in Bitcoin instead of GBP, I'd be much worse off. If I'd been paid in a fixed rate of Bitcoin, I'd be out on the fucking streets right now.

So pretty good, I'd say. Certainly not desperate enough to throw any of my cash into some great fool cryptocurrency bullshit.

 

[Yossarian]

If the pound had fallen as much against the dollar as bitcoin this year the rate would now be 54 US cents to the pound.

 

[StakerOne]

This is a fucking stupid idea to start with. The economy as well as the wider world in general is subject to change, it's not a static thing but is instead a whole collection of "things" which are constantly evolving. Given such circumstances, being chained to immutable policy is the dumbest fucking thing ever. Imagine if interest rates (or whatever else) couldn't be adjusted to suit the currently prevailing conditions.

You're talking as if it's being argued that Bitcoin is a great replacement for a national currency.

That's a "bitcoin maximalist" point of view and most bitcoin maximalists don't want that.

Bitcoin might be ideal to replace the USD as a world reserve currency, but not so good at replacing the USD itself.

Some Bitcoin maximalists might predict national currencies tanking and becoming worthless, but that doesn't mean they would actually want that to happen.

We hoped that Bitcoin's existance would dissuade national governments from debasing their currencies, but no joy there. I guess that's because governments are arrogant enough to think they will always be able to control the ecomomy through any means neccessary.

 

[StakerOne]

If the pound had fallen as much against the dollar as bitcoin this year the rate would now be 54 US cents to the pound.

There are people out there who've been through 95% drops. They don't care.

They'll accept all that volatility for longer term profits, but don't make the mistake of thinking that the crypto use case rests soley on the expectation of long term profits as that would be most unfair considering the amount of time and effort people are prepared to put into explaining the benefits of various crypto assets and technology.

 

[StakerOne]

If the majority of my assets had been tied up in Bitcoin instead of GBP, I'd be much worse off. If I'd been paid in a fixed rate of Bitcoin, I'd be out on the fucking streets right now.

So pretty good, I'd say. Certainly not desperate enough to throw any of my cash into some great fool cryptocurrency bullshit.

That pretty much depends when you bought in though, doesn't it?

No one responsible would tell you to invest or speculate on something you don't understand.

Question is, do you even want to understand it?

What I can tell you, is that people, software developers in particular, are sick to the back teeth of building on top of something, for it that something to just be pulled. More often that not, it's some fancy API by the likes of Google, Twitter or even Facebook. Do you remember Google Wave? Oh boy, a lot of people put effort into that one!

Now, thanks to immutable smart contract based blockchains and secure distributed file systems, developers know they can build in confidence knowing that there is a much much bigger chance than ever before that what they are building on, can't just be knocked down because some corporate suit has changed their mind on the viability of a product.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

With crypto, the fuckwittery is distributed

Yep, thats very true.

Everyone fucks up, everyone is untrustworthy, even yourself.
Once you realise that, you become a bitcoiner.

Once you learn to forgive your own mistakes and make wiser decisions personally, you make wiser inputs into the collective and forgive more easily.
Humans are stupid, fallable and judgemental. This is why we bitcoin.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Yep, thats very true.

Everyone fucks up, everyone is untrustworthy, even yourself.
Once you realise that, you become a bitcoiner.

Once you learn to forgive your own mistakes and make wiser decisions personally, you make wiser inputs into the collective and forgive more easily.
Humans are stupid, fallable and judgemental. This is why we bitcoin.

What the fuck is this arse dribble?

 

[pbsmooth]

I reckon qwerty is on a wind-up or not completely with it.

 

[NoXion]

I reckon qwerty is on a wind-up or not completely with it.

If it's a wind-up they're on, then they've put waaaay too much effort into it. I'm talking like pages and pages and pages of effort.

 

[Supine]

This is why we bitcoin.

Cult. It’s called a cult.

 

[mojo pixy]

There are people out there who've been through 95% drops. They don't care.

They'll accept all that volatility for longer term profits, but don't make the mistake of thinking that the crypto use case rests soley on the expectation of long term profits as that would be most unfair considering the amount of time and effort people are prepared to put into explaining the benefits of various crypto assets and technology.

The bit in bold is irrelevant because the second underlined part is an effect of the first. I don't know who you think you're arguing with, unless it's yourself.

 

[gosub]

 

[Numbers]

What the fuck is this arse dribble?

Great statement on a t-shirt or placard.

 

[gosub]

What the fuck is this arse dribble?

A man who should pivot in 2 weeks.

 

[StakerOne]

The bit in bold is irrelevant because the second underlined part is an effect of the first. I don't know who you think you're arguing with, unless it's yourself.

I quoted Yossarian, so that's who I was arguing with. If bitcoin has gone from 1 cent to about £18,000 - there's clearly long term profits, regardless of volatility or not.

 

[mojo pixy]

Absolutely, and effort put in to recruiting users is bound to pay off later if not sooner.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I quoted Yossarian, so that's who I was arguing with. If bitcoin has gone from 1 cent to about £18,000 - there's clearly long term profits, regardless of volatility or not.

There are profits for anyone who bought for less than £17k and sells up now. There are losses for anyone who bought for more than £17k and sells up now That's all you can say. The 'line goes up' dogma doesn't mean a magic way to predict that bitcoin will go up in the future.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

There are profits for anyone who bought for less than £17k and sells up now. There are losses for anyone who bought for more than £17k and sells up now That's all you can say. The 'line goes up' dogma doesn't mean a magic way to predict that bitcoin will go up in the future.

Thing is, bitcoin is not going to "stabilise" at some steady rate.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that it could go to zero. There have been at least two critical bugs found in the bitcoin code. One was exploited and the chain rolled back, the other was whitehatted. If it had not been, the damage to the network could have been severe, possibly terminal.But while I think its possible for bitcoin to go to zero, I dont think its likely. And if it isnt going to zero, it can only increase, because the upper bound is infinity.

 

[Supine]

Thing is, bitcoin is not going to "stabilise" at some steady rate.

And if it isnt going to zero, it can only increase, because the upper bound is infinity.

?

Don’t think that is true at all.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

if it isnt going to zero, it can only increase, because the upper bound is infinity.

 

[Storm Fox]

There have been at least two critical bugs found in the bitcoin code. One was exploited and the chain rolled back,

So the pages and pages of waffle about the immutability and sanctity of the chain mean nothing.
Mess up hard enough and it will get rolled back and everyone playing pretends it didn't happen.

 

[Flavour]

this thread is so fucking painfully shit

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

So the pages and pages of waffle about the immutability and sanctity of the chain mean nothing.
Mess up hard enough and it will get rolled back and everyone playing pretends it didn't happen.

It was in Aug 2010. They rolled back the chain a couple of dozen blocks with no significant impact, , most of the transactions in those 5h were faucets/giveaways, bitcoin had only just started to be traded at MxGox
. .
Were such a big to be found today the implications would be major.

 

[BigTom]

Binance, the largest crypto exchanged, hacked for $500m: World’s largest crypto exchange hacked with possible losses of $500m

“The issue is contained now. Your funds are safe. We apologize for the inconvenience and will provide further updates accordingly,” Binance’s CEO, Changpeng Zhao, said in a tweet.

Binance originally said that $100m to $110m in funds were taken. Since then, CNBC has reported the crypto company has lost $570m.

For anyone wondering, as I did, how this compares to bank robberies in the traditional finance sector:

USA, $18,9m in 1997, largest cash heist as of Aug 2022: https://moneywise.com/life/entertainment/the-biggest-bank-robberies-of-all-time
or possibly inflation adjusted from 1878 when $2.5m was robbed, equivalent to $70m dollars in 2021: List of bank robbers and robberies - Wikipedia (right at the bottom of the page)

Of course the UK does better than the US, with the Tonbridge Securitas theft in 2006:

Securitas depot robbery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Securitas depot robbery was a 2006 heist in Tonbridge, Kent, which was the UK's largest cash robbery. It began with a kidnapping on the evening of 21 February and ended in the early hours of 22 February, when seven criminals left the depot with almost £53 million. The gang left behind another £154 million because they did not have the means to transport it.

idk if that's been beaten tbf because I got distracted by a later comment in that wikipedia article which puts us all to shame

The largest cash heist in global history took place in March 2003, when approximately US$1 billion was stolen from the Central Bank of Iraq, shortly after the United States began the 2003 invasion of Iraq.[38]

In general it's something which I don't like about crypto culture - the idea that crypto/blockchain is secure. Just because something can't be deleted (except by forking the chain of course) doesn't mean the database is secure at all. It's a lot of money for binance to sink in order to protect its customers funds, I wonder if they have insurance for events like this? Or are they legally part of the traditional finance sector and consumer funds are protected in some way by a government?

edit: reading around it wasn't the exchange which was hacked, it was the bridge with Binance Smart Chain and tokens associated with that which were stolen, I think.

 

[StakerOne]

Binance, the largest crypto exchanged, hacked for $500m: World’s largest crypto exchange hacked with possible losses of $500m



For anyone wondering, as I did, how this compares to bank robberies in the traditional finance sector:

USA, $18,9m in 1997, largest cash heist as of Aug 2022: https://moneywise.com/life/entertainment/the-biggest-bank-robberies-of-all-time
or possibly inflation adjusted from 1878 when $2.5m was robbed, equivalent to $70m dollars in 2021: List of bank robbers and robberies - Wikipedia (right at the bottom of the page)

Of course the UK does better than the US, with the Tonbridge Securitas theft in 2006:

Securitas depot robbery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

idk if that's been beaten tbf because I got distracted by a later comment in that wikipedia article which puts us all to shame



In general it's something which I don't like about crypto culture - the idea that crypto/blockchain is secure. Just because something can't be deleted (except by forking the chain of course) doesn't mean the database is secure at all. It's a lot of money for binance to sink in order to protect its customers funds, I wonder if they have insurance for events like this? Or are they legally part of the traditional finance sector and consumer funds are protected in some way by a government?

edit: reading around it wasn't the exchange which was hacked, it was the bridge with Binance Smart Chain and tokens associated with that which were stolen, I think.

Nothing to do with proper cryptocurrencies.

Binance is a company, you know a centralised entity, ergo beyond the control of large cryptocurrency communities like Bitcoin or Ethereum's.

Fuck Binance I couldn't give a shit about them. They run their own blockchains and then pretend they are as good as anyone elses. The were invited by the FCA to register so I have no sympathy for them.

Decentralised exchanges are the future.

Large decentralised blockchains like Bitcoin and Etherem are secure. Smart contracts are a different matter. I've posted up about 4 or 5 times what can be done with smart contracts and you'll ignore the 6th like the other 5.

On a large DECENTRALISED blockhcain, if by CONSENSUS the COMMUNITY decides to fork their blockchain, it's none of your business.

I know dishonesty comes to you naturally, but please don't post up about how companies that run backward technology with shite security are somehow a risk to blockchains.

They aren't.

Pack it in, liar.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Nothing to do with proper cryptocurrencies.

Binance is a company, you know a centralised entity, ergo beyond the control of large cryptocurrency communities like Bitcoin or Ethereum's.

Fuck Binance I couldn't give a shit about them. They run their own blockchains and then pretend they are as good as anyone elses. The were invited by the FCA to register so I have no sympathy for them.

Decentralised exchanges are the future.

Large decentralised blockchains like Bitcoin and Etherem are secure. Smart contracts are a different matter. I've posted up about 4 or 5 times what can be done with smart contracts and you'll ignore the 6th like the other 5.

On a large DECENTRALISED blockhcain, if by CONSENSUS the COMMUNITY decides to fork their blockchain, it's none of your business.

I know dishonesty comes to you naturally, but please don't post up about how companies that run backward technology with shite security are somehow a risk to blockchains.

They aren't.

Pack it in, liar.

lol

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I know dishonesty comes to you naturally, but please don't post up about how companies that run backward technology with shite security are somehow a risk to blockchains.

At best (and I'm being charitable), this is hopelessly naive.

Fuck-ups by any company working with crypto have the potential to undermine confidence in the entire structure, particularly since, as you must well know, most people who use crypto don't deal directly with the blocks. They use crypto via intermediaries. And if exchanges like binance didn't exist, your precious tokens would be worth a whole lot less money right now.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Binance, the largest crypto exchanged, hacked for $500m: World’s largest crypto exchange hacked with possible losses of $500m

For anyone wondering, as I did, how this compares to bank robberies in the traditional finance sector:

You also have trad finance collapses (off the top of my head BCCI was several hundred million)and inside jobs - the Bank of England has been robbed for several hundred billion over the last few years, and the scam is showing no signs of abaitting.

In general it's something which I don't like about crypto culture - the idea that crypto/blockchain is secure.

A properly secured bitcoin is IMPOSSIBLE to access fraudelently.

Just because something can't be deleted (except by forking the chain of course) doesn't mean the database is secure at all.

Here you are talking about an exchange. There are zillions of exchanges where they take your bitcoin and give you a promissory note to redeem, just like a traditional bank. Again (although I've said if before) if you dont own the private key, you do not own the bitcoin.

And again, but louder

IF YOU DO NOT OWN THE PRIVATE KEY, YOU DO NOT OWN THE BITCOIN.

It's a lot of money for binance to sink in order to protect its customers funds, I wonder if they have insurance for events like this? Or are they legally part of the traditional finance sector and consumer funds are protected in some way by a government?

Customer funds are not directly protected by any government, but since 2018, Binance has had insurance with the FDIC, an insurance agency that is backed by the US government. Customers funds are secured to a value of $250k, through SAFU (Secure Asset Funds for Users) deposits.

edit: reading around it wasn't the exchange which was hacked, it was the bridge with Binance Smart Chain and tokens associated with that which were stolen, I think.

I'm not sure if the FDIC insurance will cover the bridge. Bridges (things that move coins from one chain to another) are notoriously insecure pieces of blockchain architecture, often secured only by multisig wallets. This hack is currently coming in at no3 on the "largest blockchain hacks of all time" list. All three are bridges. I really like Across, which is a trustless bridge, but its limited in the chains (EVM only) and coins it supports.