Bitcoin discussion and news
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NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
There are some people for whom I am honestly amazed that they have any money left to waste on such things.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
While I don't doubt that there are sections of the alt-right with libertarian leanings, aren't most alt-right types quite heavily statist in their goals and aspirations, some of which sound almost Strasserite? It's not as if the amount of oppression and surveillance that would be needed to establish and maintain their desired all-white ethnostate, would really qualify such a regime as the sort of minarchist "night watchman state" that I've seen proposed by most libertarians, assuming they're not "anarcho-capitalists" (LOL).
No question that both groups are politically odious, however I would be wary of considering my political enemies to constitute a single monolithic bloc.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Lot's of people post their ideas on the forum, if you think something is drivel then why take any interest in it? There's a lot you say that I don't bother with and just skip over as long-winded sanctimonious blither-blather that goes nowhere interesting. I hope your dull mentations won't bury more interesting responses going forward, the research I linked to is surely worth discussing use-value in light of.
gosub
~#
Tbf Getting into a Ponsi while the foundations are being laid can be a smart investment... Though not one where honest Al is doing the marketing
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Because climate change.
It is my hope and aim that everyone coming to this thread without preconceived ideas about bitcoin (and some who come to it with preconceived ideas) will leave it believing that bitcoin is evil. Spreading that belief makes a small contribution towards toppling it.
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camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Ah... so it's about climate change eh. Alright. I didn't think you found the subject of energy-use with bitcoin very interesting to be fair, "bitcoin harms the environment" seems to be the sum total of what you need there. I've certainly not seen much interest shown by you in discussions about how the tech is or may develop on that question or what the break-down actually is re carbon-neutral energy use versus not-so-carbon neutral. Someone in China used spare-coal power for their bit-mine... Ahah! That'll do, position locked-in forever, nothin further to discuss, as we all know this sort of technology gets written in stone and changes form, method or usage only very rarely. You shouldn't have to review your position regarding these terrifying new ideas about how/what/why value is in an age of crypto for at least another thirty years probably.
People from the future Rebel Alliance against Crypto or whatever who bother to read through all this looking for that winning damning critique will be sorely disappointed imo, at least as far as the thoughts and ideas of litlebabyjesus are concerned anyway.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's about everything I've said about it. But the reason it is an urgent issue for everyone rather than a curiosity of a collective madness pyramid scheme is climate change. However clean the energy it uses may be, that energy could be being used to do something useful instead, so there is no such thing as carbon-neutral bitcoin mining.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
This bit I honestly can't believe you're saying with a straight face- not "bitcoin is a concern because climate change", that's a concern I share but in a much less agenda-laden way than yourself (you were looking for something solid to hold against the technology, you found climate change). But the idea that sustainable energy used for bitcoin mining is an outrage because "something useful instead" is just too bonkers for me to wrap my fingers around and strangle (in the murderous rage against bonkers ridiculous criticisms of things that your argument inspires in me). I'm not kidding, I honestly don't know how to start on that one... you're against bitcoin because the environment (ok, fair enou-) you're against bitcoin if it was entirely clean sustainable carbon-neutral energy because..... "something useful" could instead have been done with that sunlight/wind-power/hydro-wave/geo-thermal.... what, something that littlebabyjesus considers "useful" but didn't actually rock-up with the necessary resources and build the necessary infrastructure? Not to mention the demand-pull the crypto-industry will have on investments into sustainable energy technology itself. These ideas of yours are not what the concept of "opportunity cost" means.
Bah- you know what, forget it.
As long as the world is still producing enough CO2 to keep us on a path to environmental disaster in the near future, it is madness to be using a medium sized country’s worth of electricity just to power a handful of almost entirely speculative transactions, all of which have no inherent value in the production of anything.
It doesn’t matter if some of that electricity is of renewable origin. The world is still running an excess of fossil fuel power. Renewable electricity being poured straight down the sink is energy that is not being used to reduce that excess.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Have a little think about what you're saying here.
One way to tackle climate change is to invent useless wastes of energy so that we'll have to think even harder about how to do things sustainably. We tackle climate change by increasing demand for electricity. That's your idea?
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
I don't think you've quite gotten what renewable energy is about.
Look, ultimately 'value' comes from the human experience, and if greedy speculators want to power their money-making scams with renewable energy to ensure their are as profitable a selection of money-making scams as can be- then I just can't find the energy myself to have a problem with that. To be fair, capitalist greed usually likes to move in a different direction than sustainable. We'll see if a medium country's worth of energy continues to be what bitcoin needs to run, new techs usually start out laughably (or worryingly) inefficient. I don't think bitcoin will prevail if it's costs are so far in excess of its utility... I think it'll be replaced by something much leaner, now that we know how to make cryptocurrencies.
By the way, if bitcoin really was just about greedy speculators and money-making scams- it would have sold all of itself out years ago. Stop underestimating the people in this space. As you think bitcoins are bad and wrong- it's as if you've decided that all people who join ISIS really want is to dress in black and make crappy videos in the desert.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You're so far down the rabbit hole here, it's actually a bit scary. How could you not grasp the simple point kabbes was making? It really is a very simple point.
Is that right? What do you think I don't get about it?
Is it that renewable energy is somehow the same as infinite energy?
Is it that renewable energy somehow has no set-up energy cost?
Is it that renewable energy is scalable in an unlimited fashion?
What am I missing here? Far as I can see, renewable energy is a finite resource that is available to the highest bidder. If that bidder is a currency speculator, other users of energy will have to go elsewhere.
From this, I think it's YOU who doesn't get renewable energy.
Or, for that matter, "value". Speculation value is pure rent seeking. Look it up. By definition, it provides no value.
Like the Madoff Ponzi scheme did? Or did that keep going for about 30 years before it collapsed? Bubbles and pyramid schemes can keep going a long, long time. They don't have to burn out in a few years.
I think people in this space fall into a number of overlapping categories:
1) Hard-core libertarians ideologically wedded to the idea of a stateless economy
2) Those who need a currency to conduct illegal business
3) Speculators who got in early
4) Speculators who got in late
All of these people fall into two camps -- those who know how much of an economic armageddon this thing is and those who don't. My mission is to eliminate the camp of those who don't know. Once people know how harmful it is, if they choose to continue speculating with it then yes, I do judge them harshly.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
You're making the point that people often miss about "recycling"- which costs energy and often water. I'm making the point that it's about capacity, or 'crowding out' rather than 'pouring down the drain'. Except that the expansion and development of renewable energy infrastructure is actually being driven by the crypto-industry rather than just plugging-in to the towns one and only sun-tower and spunking half the sun-juice on drugs buying and greedy speculation. You might think it's just greedy idiots and libertards but frankly- more clients for manufacturers in the renewable energy sector is overall a good thing for the renewable energy sector. It doesn't matter whether you think those clients are using the enrgy for something worthwhile over-all or not. Maybe it's because I'm a Keynesian I don't see a problem here. You could argue that "yeah but it's pushing up the price of aluminium, all those wind-farms just for stupid stinky bitcoins" but- I dunno, the world could do with more wind-farms. When bitcoin implodes as you expect it too... at least we'll have more windfarms. Then you can spend the renewable energy that bitcoin greed built up on all that "more worthwhile" stuff you keep going on about that obviously wasn't quite worthwhile enough for anyone to have actually bothered building wind-farms for in the first place.
I agree that rent-seeking isn't value, speculation is as valuable as exploration really, except it's possible to over-do... there is some value to speculation in the price-discovery process. It is of some value that some misguided dreamers are willing to risk some thing on the off-chance that that something might turn out to be useful. I don't think the however many billions now bitcoin industry is all speculation though. You're not up to speed with developments in the space or you'd have other things to talk about by now beyond Speculation, Tulips, Pyramids and Madoff. This means you're probably not in a position to evaluate anything in crypto beyond those cosy familiar positions.
Judge em as soft or harsh as you want mate, but at least understand their world view. Why is this single principal so difficult to understand??? I don't care if you like or dislike bitcoin and want to see it dead... You're like the Americans or something, stomping about seeing everything in terms of your own world view and being completely fucking clueless about what actually goes on inside of the mind of a Jihadi or a Communist or whoever it is you've not bothered to even learn the language of this time let alone the point of view of as you set out to blast em with that double-barrel shot-gun that you use for stereoscopic vision. "They're all speculators and criminals" is your version of "They hate us for our freedoms".
BigTom
Well-Known Member
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Can you put some numbers on that? Lots of btc mining goes on in places like Venezuela, Russia and China, and lots of it is not done using custom-built renewable energy sources (which also cost energy to make, remember, but let's glide over that bit for now). What percentage is renewable currently, and what percentage of that was purpose-built, so wouldn't exist without bitcoin?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I can give you the short answer to my question, btw, which is 'you don't know'. Estimates are that 70% of mining takes place in China, where, according to recent noises from China:
China to Curb Power Supply for Some Bitcoin Miners
So your Keynesian vision of btc bequeathing a renewable energy infrastructure to help save the planet is very largely wrong. Most miners (and this is also true in Venezuela and Russia) are using existing supplies, targetting areas with cheap electricity prices. In other words, they are edging out other potential users by paying a bit more than their rivals to secure supply, in many cases leading to power shortages for the people who live in those areas (too poor to compete) - various blackouts in Venezuela have been blamed on mining also.
I suggest that you are simply repeating the propaganda about this stuff that is all over the internet without first checking that there is any truth to it. The reality is that the poorest people in the poorest areas are being squeezed - real-world suffering caused by the folly that is bitcoin.
China to Curb Power Supply for Some Bitcoin Miners
So your Keynesian vision of btc bequeathing a renewable energy infrastructure to help save the planet is very largely wrong. Most miners (and this is also true in Venezuela and Russia) are using existing supplies, targetting areas with cheap electricity prices. In other words, they are edging out other potential users by paying a bit more than their rivals to secure supply, in many cases leading to power shortages for the people who live in those areas (too poor to compete) - various blackouts in Venezuela have been blamed on mining also.
I suggest that you are simply repeating the propaganda about this stuff that is all over the internet without first checking that there is any truth to it. The reality is that the poorest people in the poorest areas are being squeezed - real-world suffering caused by the folly that is bitcoin.
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NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
So's atmospheric noise, but I guess they couldn't have made such a ridiculous song and dance about it if they had. What the fuck?
I think I'll stick to dice rolling.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
From various things I've read, it may now be approaching a level at which mining will no longer be profitable at current hardness levels. We'll see how long the miners stick around when that level is reached. Two weeks between recalibrations of the puzzle may mean an awful long time at too hard a level. I still maintain that the whole thing could fall apart completely within a matter of hours - blocks no longer being unlocked at nearly the right rate, actual users of the thing as currency getting stuck in an ever-lengthening queue, everyone panic-selling.
I guess that if the miners still have bcs, they may feel it's worth taking a hit for a short while. Or they may feel it's time to get out and dump the whole thing.
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
This is a good read on bitcoin from a finance professor:
Musings on Markets: The Bitcoin Boom: Asset, Currency, Commodity or Collectible?
TL/DR: bitcoin is not an asset, but a currency, and as such, you cannot value it or invest in it. You can only price it and trade it.
FWIW I think bitcoin's price is sustained far more by financial repression in China (capital controls and extremely poor returns from state-owned banks and industry) than drugs and black market stuff. That is a plausible reason Chinese miners control so much of the action.
Musings on Markets: The Bitcoin Boom: Asset, Currency, Commodity or Collectible?
TL/DR: bitcoin is not an asset, but a currency, and as such, you cannot value it or invest in it. You can only price it and trade it.
FWIW I think bitcoin's price is sustained far more by financial repression in China (capital controls and extremely poor returns from state-owned banks and industry) than drugs and black market stuff. That is a plausible reason Chinese miners control so much of the action.
Yossarian
⏭️
I don't know why it didn't fall faster sooner - if people have something like bitcoin and it's valued at $19K, then $17K, then 15, 13 on a very clear downhill slide, why wouldn't they sell it at 11 or somewhere and buy it back if it goes up to that level again?
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but then I don't know a lot about investing. Seems like bitcoin has attracted a lot of similarly inexperienced people - I read somewhere this week that the number of Brazilians that have bought bitcoin is double the number who own stocks, shares, etc. and there are a lot of salesmen for coin exchanges etc. in places like the Sao Paulo metro, seems like a lot of them are going to end up losing their savings.
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but then I don't know a lot about investing. Seems like bitcoin has attracted a lot of similarly inexperienced people - I read somewhere this week that the number of Brazilians that have bought bitcoin is double the number who own stocks, shares, etc. and there are a lot of salesmen for coin exchanges etc. in places like the Sao Paulo metro, seems like a lot of them are going to end up losing their savings.
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