UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Does that mean graphics card prices are finally going to fall?
Bitcoin discussion and news
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Does that mean graphics card prices are finally going to fall?
BigTom
Well-Known Member
again, more stupid whataboutery. I have no Christmas lights at my house and have for years moaned about the waste of electricity that those house displays use, and council/public displays too. All of this crap needs to stop. Just because there are some things that use as much, or more, electricity as BTC doesn't mean the batshit insane amount of energy BTC uses is ok, or not a problem, or should be disregarded because of something else.
Personally have stopped buying online and am finding traditional dealers again to cover the gaps in my homegrow, beacuse of the crazy energy usage. I'm not excusing it because eg I have no car, solar panels and such like and a very low carbon footprint (for a westerner) or because other people waste electric in other ways. Instead I'm saying exactly as I did with my car, as I am with meat and other things and finding other ways with lower energy usage to satisfy those needs.
No-one needs to speculate on btc. Actual usage is restricted almost entirely to illegal purchases which can be satisfied in traditional ways again. fuck btc.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Do you really need to post on the internet?
lol, I kid
~I respect what you're saying and where you're coming from, which is consistent with your position on christmas lights and other things. Also it occurs to me is that the eco thing isn't about bitcoins energy use, the energy use isn't the problem in itself, if someone was running bitcoin off geo-thermal for example and selling the heat production to the local town where it's used to warm peoples houses then who cares how much energy they use if it's sustainable and carbon neutral. It's when it isn't that's the problem, or when the miners are exploiting national arrangements like subsidised energy or cheap coal to externalize their costs to the general population. I think the mix of energy use should also be considered, the form of energy and its impact in terms of carbon, other pollution and environmental impact. Energy in itself is not a dirty word and we live in a universe where it's all around us (even in the vacuum according to zero-point theory), getting at it is a technological issue (as in it matters about the details of how and with what investment and waste products etc).
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ffsear
Well-Known Member
But the article says.... "We often read about how Bitcoin is using more power then Ireland, or Denmark"
So does that already take the Christmas lights of either country into account? I don't get the comparison.
The Fornicator
Active Member
I'm not saying Wall Street algorithms are good I'm saying *they* won't allow the crypto market to crash as if it were a bubble.
I guess it's the least worst of the two evils, or maybe three evils if you include the manipulative shenanigans out of China.
mauvais
on reddit or something
OK - why?
The Fornicator
Active Member
It's a license to print money, huge amounts.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
By that I guess the United States spends more enrgy on crimbolumination per annum than does the likes of Denmark overall?
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
People say money doesn't grow on trees, apple-farmers (many of whom are struggling) disagree.
mauvais
on reddit or something
Oh dear.
ffsear
Well-Known Member
So the amount of power the USA uses on Xmas lights could power Denmark for a year?
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
You guess? Why not actually look it up or do the sums yourself?
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
go fuck yourself.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Typical reaction from a cultist when asked to substantiate their bullshit. You ain't got a leg to stand on, fool.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
No it really isn't. In common with many bc enthusiasts, it seems, you don't really understand what bc is or what money is. Specifically, you don't get where the 'value' is coming from when the price of your bitcoin goes up.
joustmaster
offcumdun
fixed
The Fornicator
Active Member
You can't all be this stupid. Wall Street is effectively running the crypto markets - I see manipulation every day. They are effectively printing money now. Today.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
"Verily, the greedy and the wicked shall be punished for they know not Gods will and take-eth the devils coin. Sinful! Sinful I say!"
(translated to bibble-speak for your amusement)
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
No, they really are not. One thing we all seem to agree on in this thread is that bitcoin has costs.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
Do you really need to post on the internet?
lol, I kid
~I respect what you're saying and where you're coming from, which is consistent with your position on christmas lights and other things. Also it occurs to me is that the eco thing isn't about bitcoins energy use, the energy use isn't the problem in itself, if someone was running bitcoin off geo-thermal for example and selling the heat production to the local town where it's used to warm peoples houses then who cares how much energy they use if it's sustainable and carbon neutral. It's when it isn't that's the problem, or when the miners are exploiting national arrangements like subsidised energy or cheap coal to externalize their costs to the general population. I think the mix of energy use should also be considered, the form of energy and its impact in terms of carbon, other pollution and environmental impact. Energy in itself is not a dirty word and we live in a universe where it's all around us (even in the vacuum according to zero-point theory), getting at it is a technological issue (as in it matters about the details of how and with what investment and waste products etc).
The issue then becomes that electricity is not an infinite resource and we have to decide what we are going to use it for. BTC is an incredibly energy inefficient way of making transactions, it makes no sense to use it from a resource-use point of view, traditional banking payment systems are orders of magnitude more efficient, and this is because of the proof of work (POW) nature of btc, I don't think you can get away from it with more efficient processing devices, you still have to process way more information than with visa or similar traditional payment systems.
fact of the matter now though is that the majority of that energy usage will almost certainly be carbon heavy, and there is no way for you to decide whether the BTC transactions you make are going to be processed by miners using geo-thermal electricity with usage for "waste" heat or by dirty coal powered stuff. So whilst there might be a point in the future where the environmental/carbon aspect of BTC isn't an issue, that's not where we are right now.
joustmaster
offcumdun
But why do you think that they won't just take all they can from it then leave it a worthless broken empty husk with lots of desperate people out of pocket?
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
Good grief. It's an asset bubble just like any other. The actual use value (ie. how much people are willing to pay to have money transferred across the world in a secure and relatively anonymous fashion) of a bitcoin is not zero, but it's not $20,000. No money is being created. It's just being poured into a very volatile asset. When the crash happens, the only people laughing will be the people who sold just before it. They will be left holding the actual money and everyone else will be left holding comparatively worthless tokens. Still useful for converting in and out of actual money in order to move it from place to place, of course.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
It must be like measuring the expansion of the universe for you due to the mysterious dark-energy that makes the bubble accelerate outwards and not throw into reverse and collapse as your model predicts it should. Annoying.
I reckon eventually the bitcoin universe will slow in it's expansion to a crawl, what would happen then who knows. Assuming we don't end up like Venus by then of course.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Surely anyone with a pension already has. Or their banks have anyway.
As bitcoin prices continue their rise the danger grows of a bitcoin-orientated debt-bubble where people are taking out debts to buy bitcoin. When bitcoin growth slows (whenever that happens) even for just awhile a it did for a couple of years already from 2013 iirc, those under-water will default. This won't necessarily effect bitcoins price because by then it will mean a great deal of purchasing power equivalent to hundreds of billions of dollars more than now and Power will ensure it's interests are protected (which it's my belief that bitcoin will by then be seen as a sufficient means for doing precisely that). However many defaulters will still be deeply in fiat debt.
It might be to miss the point to expect a bitcoin bubble leading to collapsing prices in bitcoin, that might happen in bits and pieces now and then but mathematically bitcoin prices themselves can probably continue to expand... the real wreckage might be beside the crypto-road behind where people who over-extended themselves in an effort to grab at the promise of bitcoin are left lying in the ditch with the bitcoins they borrowed so much to buy now discounted into the hands of those with the power to bide their time.
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Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
Asset bubbles are not mysterious. The psychology of bubbles is that nobody thinks they are going to be the one left standing when the music stops. Of course it's a foolish game to play, but so long as you're not the Biggest Fool, you'll be fine!
BTC has experienced bubbles before. Quick, what are the values on these axes?
Or this one?
If you bought BTC in the flat bits of these curves and sold at the peak, good for you! (And I hope you planted some trees
)If you are buying BTC today, you are on the right hand side of these curves and you are a Bigger Fool.
I went to the wikipedia list of asset bubbles and clicked one at random: Poseidon bubble - Wikipedia
"The price of Poseidon shares quickly became too high for many investors, so some turned to other nickel stocks, stocks in other mines near Windarra, and eventually other mining stocks in general. As the price of mining shares grew, new companies were listed by promoters looking to cash in. Mining stocks peaked in January 1970, then immediately crashed. Poseidon shares peaked at an intraday high of $280 in February 1970, and fell rapidly thereafter."
Bold text = where we are right now with the dozens/hundreds of other coins all jostling for space, as if there's actual market demand or real world use for this many tokens.
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camouflage
gaslit at scale.
we could play this game all day... perhaps for decades. that's my point.
The alt-market is wide and diverse but in a way is merely an extension of the bitcoin economy itself, btc is what most of them are traded in on the exchange. Tell me, does the dollar suffer from all the various commodities the dollar is traded for? Personally I think bitcoin will remain the crypto. For similar reasons that we still use IPv4 in a way.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Further thought- at the end of the day there's only one real form of wealth, time. If bitcoins primary use value right now is appreciation in buying power, then maybe it gets closer to quantifying the value of time (and using energy to do it). If you buy a hundred pounds worth of bitcoin today, then (assuming the bubble-callers aren't right) then in five years people would say "Woah! You've had bitcoin for five years? Drinks are on you!" it's as if time itself has been monetized. But instead of five years of accumulating interest minus five years of inflation, it's five years of deflationary appreciation. Ok it's controversial whether you can run an economy based on appreciation over time and whether that can even be called money, but as a symbol of a form of wealth based on time and energy-expenditure? Still controversial I suppose, for as long as we don't run out of years and some sort of economic growth like massive ecological or environmental die-back, economic depression, society collapse, the death of millions, or the full Venus scenario. Not sure if bitcoin will cause those things. If it does then it would be because of the technology failure re the use of energy for bitcoin or the distribution of wealth with a new cryptstockracy surrounded by seas of angry poverty and failing social services. So same like we do now then.
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That was quite funny tbf
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