Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

[Magnus McGinty]

His point relies on a single (unknown) source speaking to the Guardian to suggest working in the night time economy might play a role as Asian people tend to work as taxi drivers and in takeaways. That aside, I can't as of yet find a single article that states what the Newcastle perpetrators actually did for a living.

Most evidence points to them being drug dealers than taxi drivers or takeaway workers.

 

[Sweet FA]

Vulnerable underage girls usually having the kind of cash flow that enables them to get cabs everywhere. Yeah, ok.

They weren't paying for the cabs.

Rotherham abuse survivors press for stricter taxi safety measures

 

[Magnus McGinty]

They weren't paying for the cabs.

Rotherham abuse survivors press for stricter taxi safety measures

We were specifically discussing Newcastle where it's unclear what any of them did for a living. Maybe more info will emerge when the rest are convicted.

 

[Sweet FA]

We were specifically discussing Newcastle where it's unclear what any of them did for a living. Maybe more info will emerge when the rest are convicted.

Ah. Didn't read back.

 

[killer b]

I wasn't talking specifically about Newcastle, and nor was Seymour.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Well his opening paragraph is very misleading then.

 

[killer b]

It really isn't. As with many pieces of writing, it widens to cover more than just the topic of the very first paragraph.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It's a bizarre line of argument to tie Newcastle with Rochdale etc by the 'night economy' when we don't actually know what the former did for a living beyond the suggestion that they worked for the 'night economy' by virtue of their 'race' (which he is trying to avoid with regards to their offending) when all we know is that they were involved in drug trafficking along with their other nefarious activities. In fact it's a racist premise that he presents in itself.

 

[malatesta32]

I think there is some merit to his argument about the access those in the night time economy have to vulnerable young women, tbf - paedophile rings do tend to coalesce around particular professions because of the opportunities they offer to indulge their tastes rather than the professions turning people into nonces. I don't think that's very controversial.

there is a distinction between those who prey on vulnerable underage girls and pedophile rings. check the link in this: Far Right Sex Offenders (continued). [edited]

 

[The39thStep]

there is a distinction between those who prey on vulnerable underage girls and pedophile rings. check the link in this: Far Right Sex Offenders (continued). [edited]

Mal , that's an interesting distinction that the article makes but a quite frightening figure that 75% of those who sexually abuse vulnerable teenagers are Asian. Going back to the night time economy , Greater Manchester Police score taxi firms, late night takeaways etc as potential high risk for vulnerable teenagers and pay passing visits as part of the child safeguarding strategy with the Councils.

 

[killer b]

75% of those who sexually abuse vulnerable teenagers are Asian

those figures are specifically about groups of men carrying out sexual exploitation, which is much less common than individuals doing it (about which there are no ethnicity figures published).

 

[killer b]

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to get anyone off the hook here - there is clearly a problem with sexual exploitation of vulnerable women and girls by groups of Asian men. I just think it's worth having an open mind to why and how this is happening - the contempt the women most vulnerable to exploitation are held in by grooming gangs is shared by wide swathes of the population, and they are the same women who are vulnerable to exploitation by the pimps and pushers who operate solo and are much more numerous (and who presumably are of a more diverse range of ethnicities). What's unusual here isn't the exploitation, sadly - it's the group nature of the exploitation. I think what Seymour touches on re: night time economy explains the way these groups form better than it being a moral failing on the part of a specific ethnic group.

 

[The39thStep]

those figures are specifically about groups of men carrying out sexual exploitation, which is much less common than individuals doing it (about which there are no ethnicity figures published).

Yes but it's still a very disturbing figure

 

[killer b]

Yes but it's still a very disturbing figure

The figure is 75% of 300 recorded offenders (57 groups) in 2012. I don't know if you can really extrapolate too much from that by itself - figures could easily by skewed by operational priorities of police forces in such a small cohort. There was almost 10 times as many lone offenders.

As I said though, I'm not trying to get anyone off the hook.

 

[The39thStep]

The figure is 75% of 300 recorded offenders (57 groups) in 2012. I don't know if you can really extrapolate too much from that by itself - figures could easily by skewed by operational priorities of police forces in such a small cohort. There was almost 10 times as many lone offenders.

As I said though, I'm not trying to get anyone off the hook.

The only operational priorities that I could think of that would influence the figures are child safeguarding ie grooming gangs. Be interesting to see some more recent data.

 

[killer b]

The report itself does point out that in 2012 there was high public concern re: grooming gangs because of a number of high profile cases (Rochdale and Rotherham I guess) - I've no doubt a lot of these networks will have been rolled up around then for this reason.

 

[Joe Reilly]

The allegations against Pakistanis are little or no different to those leveled against the Irish, against Jews, against West Indians, even against the Maltese, over the last couple of centuries. They are part of a bourgeois tradition of dividing the working class on racial lines in order to weaken it.

If you're really interested in opposing the fascists who want to make use of these divisions to smash all working class resistance and opposition then it might be worth your while reading Richard Seymour's brief, but excellent analysis of the latest moral panic to descend upon us.

In summary:

'If you're really interested in opposing the fascists you must be prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder with the child rapists against them and their bourgeois sponsors'.
Cheers for clearing that up.

 

[killer b]

It'd be nice if this discussion could be had without the tedious accusations / counteraccusations of racism/nonce apologism. Is that possible?

 

[Pickman's model]

19force8

I'd be grateful if you could link to sites about the similar or identical allegations made against the Irish, Jews etc

 

[hot air baboon]

the taxi driver issue again QI

Birmingham City Council hid links between Asian cabbies and child sex victims for 23 years

Dr Jesson said: “Every time a news item has come on about sexual grooming of young girls and girls in care, and the link, too, between private hire drivers, I have thought ‘I told them about that in 1991 but they didn’t want to acknowledge it’.

“I think the problem has got worse and worse over time.”

Dr Jesson was hired by the council to conduct the Government-funded study into the health issues of child prostitution involving girls in care. She identified 20 girls in care at that time who authorities believed had become involved in child prostitution.

“It wasn’t called grooming then, it was called prostitution,” Dr Jesson said. “The girls were all aged between 13 and 17 and were all under the care of Birmingham City Council social services.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to get anyone off the hook here - there is clearly a problem with sexual exploitation of vulnerable women and girls by groups of Asian men. I just think it's worth having an open mind to why and how this is happening - the contempt the women most vulnerable to exploitation are held in by grooming gangs is shared by wide swathes of the population, and they are the same women who are vulnerable to exploitation by the pimps and pushers who operate solo and are much more numerous (and who presumably are of a more diverse range of ethnicities). What's unusual here isn't the exploitation, sadly - it's the group nature of the exploitation. I think what Seymour touches on re: night time economy explains the way these groups form better than it being a moral failing on the part of a specific ethnic group.

There are millions involved in the night-time economy not just Muslim men. So unless Seymour can point to examples of the grooming or children involving other ethnic or religious groupings then that particular argument must fall.

 

[19force8]

19force8

As you ask so nicely:

The Irish

Julie Birchill in the Guardian 2002 described Ireland as being synonymous with "child molestation, Nazi-sympathising, and the oppression of women." Can't get my hands on the original Guardian column, please accept Unruly Julie: Julie Burchill: ThePost.ie courtesy of Wikipedia

Jews

Der Sturmer routinely featured stories about sexual exploitation of Aryan women by Jews. Rassenschande - Wikipedia

West Indians

Letter following the Notting Hill Race Riots accusing the victims of "drawing the dole and at the same time living on the immoral earnings of our women." Letter attacking Trades Union Congress statement following the Notting Hill riots :: The Archive Vault

Maltese

This one arose from an extraordinary outburst at a Frank Dobson meeting in Camden 30 years ago by an old racist linking "Maltesers" and pimping/white slavery. Might have just been general anti-immigrant racism or could have been linked to this: The 'White Slave Trade' and the Musk Hall Affair in 1930s Malta on JSTOR

 

[killer b]

There are millions involved in the night-time economy not just Muslim men. So unless Seymour can point to examples of the grooming or children involving other ethnic or religious groupings then that particular argument must fall.

Here's one from where I live. Doubtless plenty more should you bother to look.

Preston takeaway staff jailed for sex abuse of underage girls - BBC News

Either way: I don't think he's totally right. But it is a factor.

 

[killer b]

(Fwiw I'm given to understand by a social worker familiar with the case that there's also a asian grooming gang, centring on a particular taxi firm, in the process of being pulled in in Preston too)

 

[The39thStep]

As you ask so nicely:

The Irish

Julie Birchill in the Guardian 2002 described Ireland as being synonymous with "child molestation, Nazi-sympathising, and the oppression of women." Can't get my hands on the original Guardian column, please accept Unruly Julie: Julie Burchill: ThePost.ie courtesy of Wikipedia

Jews

Der Sturmer routinely featured stories about sexual exploitation of Aryan women by Jews. Rassenschande - Wikipedia

West Indians

Letter following the Notting Hill Race Riots accusing the victims of "drawing the dole and at the same time living on the immoral earnings of our women." Letter attacking Trades Union Congress statement following the Notting Hill riots :: The Archive Vault

Maltese

This one arose from an extraordinary outburst at a Frank Dobson meeting in Camden 30 years ago by an old racist linking "Maltesers" and pimping/white slavery. Might have just been general anti-immigrant racism or could have been linked to this: The 'White Slave Trade' and the Musk Hall Affair in 1930s Malta on JSTOR

May have been linked to the fact that the Maltese controlled large parts the sex industry in Soho for years .

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I wonder if there was any outcry from Seymour or the wider left over the Burchill article.

 

[killer b]

Seymour is Irish, I'd imagine he'd take a view.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

True, bad example. The wider left point stands though.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Preston takeaway staff jailed for sex abuse of underage girls - BBC News

Here's one from where I live. Doubtless plenty more should you bother to look.

Preston takeaway staff jailed for sex abuse of underage girls - BBC News

Either way: I don't think he's totally right. But it is a factor.

The Preston example seems different for a number of reasons. It is suggested the premises was a 'sinister front' specifically set up for that purpose. The owner and staff were so inclined to begin with. Also, the victims were tricked/lured/trapped (modelling offers) rather than groomed. And from the charges it looked like it might have been a one-off with each of the girls. Five victims in total. Rotherham alone had 1400 victims. Plus, they were often trafficked, when the groomers got tired of them. And who did they traffic them to? Night-time workers in other cities?

So it isn't about 'bothering to look'. If some sort of equivalence is to be drawn with the indigenous white population it would be a scandal of epidemic proportion. Impossible to ignore or deny. It would also involve other ethnic/religious minority groups of similar size. As neither seems to be the case this particular defense must fall.
Ultimately it only becomes 'a factor' if there is some sort of predisposition to take advantage of the opportunity afforded to begin with.

 

[Joe Reilly]

May have been linked to the fact that the Maltese controlled large parts the sex industry in Soho for years .

The same Maltese gangsters were also hired by the far-right to attack the 43 group.