Any other idiots (like me) still smoking? This virus means time to stop & wld love mutual support.

[prunus]

I've read a few bits in the last weeks or so to suggest that ex smokers have higher ACE2 levels than smokers.

I've also read something that suggested that smokers were largely under represented in deaths in China. I'll try and dig it out tonight if I can find it again.

Please do - the only study I’ve seen so far (the
main demographic breakdown one of just over 1000 cases) suggests quite the opposite, with smokers making up about 12% of all cases but 25% of cases resulting in death/ICU/ventilator. This doesn’t of course take into account whether smokers are just less likely to get it in the first place, but it certainly suggests that smoking contributes to an increased risk of severe disease. (For conpletness: as with all the results in that paper the lack of multivariate analysis is endless frustrating, there’s no way of knowing if those smokers were also typically older, confounding the risk factors. But on the raw data that’s the interpretation).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Please do - the only study I’ve seen so far (the
main demographic breakdown one of just over 1000 cases) suggests quite the opposite, with smokers making up about 12% of all cases but 25% of cases resulting in death/ICU/ventilator. This doesn’t of course take into account whether smokers are just less likely to get it in the first place, but it certainly suggests that smoking contributes to an increased risk of severe disease. (For conpletness: as with all the results in that paper the lack of multivariate analysis is endless frustrating, there’s no way of knowing if those smokers were also typically older, confounding the risk factors. But on the raw data that’s the interpretation).

Smokers may also be underrepresented among the very old cos they're already dead.

 

[prunus]

Smokers may also be underrepresented among the very old cos they're already dead.

True! But there’s no way of knowing from the data presented

 

[Pickman's model]

True! But there’s no way of knowing from the data presented

In a pub recently eavesdropping on a table of auld folk, none of whom smoked, talking about their friends who did smoke, all of who were dead. Take from that what you will.

 

[kabbes]

I read one study from China that had done a multivariate analysis that placed smoking at the very top of the risk factors, with an OR if 14 (ie 14 times as likely for the disease to progress than for non-smokers, holding other variables constant). It was a higher OR than fever, CRP, albumen and even age

 

[prunus]

I read one study from China that had done a multivariate analysis that placed smoking at the very top of the risk factors, with an OR if 14 (ie 14 times as likely for the disease to progress than for non-smokers, holding other variables constant). It was a higher OR than fever, CRP, albumen and even age

If you could link to that I’d be enormously grateful, been looking for that kind of thing for ages. Thanks.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I read one study from China that had done a multivariate analysis that placed smoking at the very top of the risk factors, with an OR if 14 (ie 14 times as likely for the disease to progress than for non-smokers, holding other variables constant). It was a higher OR than fever, CRP, albumen and even age

South Korea has the biggest gap by sex for smoking in the world - ten times more men than women smoke - and has also seen more men than women die from CV (on a small sample base so far - <100), although women have been nearly twice as likely to test positive, oddly.

That fits with this idea, but there do appear to be lots of levels of uncertainty - smokers die younger than non-smokers, but the older generation is still more likely to smoke in many countries. Are young smokers also at high risk, or is it the cumulative damage of decades of smoking that creates the risk?

Why South Korea has so few coronavirus deaths while Italy has so many

 

[bimble]

I read one study from China that had done a multivariate analysis that placed smoking at the very top of the risk factors, with an OR if 14 (ie 14 times as likely for the disease to progress than for non-smokers, holding other variables constant). It was a higher OR than fever, CRP, albumen and even age

That's what i read too (14 more likely to get a severe case). Cant find the actual study though just mentions of it. It seems to have been a very small sample but still.

 

[tommers]

Was very pleased with all the restrictions they've brought in so far too. Everytime I failed to give up it was with a pack of ten Marlboro reds so not selling tens was great news. I'm in favour of a full Bhutanese style ban. In your own house and private members clubs only.

Yeah, I used to moan about the smoking ban when it came in but fuck me, that's probably the best bit of legislation of the last however many years.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, I used to moan about the smoking ban when it came in but fuck me, that's probably the best bit of legislation of the last however many years.

It's weird when you go places like Germany where there are still bars you can smoke in. I actually relapsed into smoking having given up for about a year following a visit to Berlin, where I smoked in a bar just cos I could.

Japan is the strangest one. You can't smoke in the street, so you have to nip into a bar or restaurant for a puff.

 

[prunus]

If you could link to that I’d be enormously grateful, been looking for that kind of thing for ages. Thanks.

Ah is it this one? Analysis of Factors Associated With Disease Outcomes in Hospitalized Patients With 2019 Novel Coronavirus Disease - PubMed

Small sample size unfortunately, but yes, OR over 14 for smoking (history of in fact they describe it as). I know there’s a lot of speculation and research going on about ACE2 receptors and the like, and there’s clearly something interesting going on there (although what and even in which direction effects are is far from clear); I would for the moment and until analysis shows otherwise probably use Occam’s razor to hypothesise that smoking damages lungs, and that damaged lungs are more prone to catastrophic failure from a disease that further damages lungs.

So keep on giving up and start your lungs healing.

 

[elbows]

If nicotine ends up having a marginal positive effect, it wouldn’t be the first condition for which the potential benefits of nicotine itself are massively outweighed by the negatives of the delivery mechanism. Nicotine is thought maybe to marginally help against Alzheimer’s (mediated by acetylcholine, IIRC), but smoking is a massive risk factor nonetheless for dementia of all kinds because of the impact it has on blood flow, amongst other things. So it’s not just about one effect of one element in isolation.

Thanks. I have been using an e-cig for 5 years, so my own personal dilemma is about nicotine in the context of a former smoker, rather than current smoking.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ah is it this one? Analysis of Factors Associated With Disease Outcomes in Hospitalized Patients With 2019 Novel Coronavirus Disease - PubMed

Small sample size unfortunately, but yes, OR over 14 for smoking (history of in fact they describe it as). I know there’s a lot of speculation and research going on about ACE2 receptors and the like, and there’s clearly something interesting going on there (although what and even in which direction effects are is far from clear); I would for the moment and until analysis shows otherwise probably use Occam’s razor to hypothesise that smoking damages lungs, and that damaged lungs are more prone to catastrophic failure from a disease that further damages lungs.

So keep on giving up and start your lungs healing.

Yeah, I reckon this is a very good way to look at it. And it's also good to remember that giving up is massively beneficial overall to your life chances, and that the younger you give up the more beneficial it is (almost 100% beneficial if you're under 40, but still at 50% beneficial if you're 50).

 

[kabbes]

Ah is it this one? Analysis of Factors Associated With Disease Outcomes in Hospitalized Patients With 2019 Novel Coronavirus Disease - PubMed

Small sample size unfortunately, but yes, OR over 14 for smoking (history of in fact they describe it as). I know there’s a lot of speculation and research going on about ACE2 receptors and the like, and there’s clearly something interesting going on there (although what and even in which direction effects are is far from clear); I would for the moment and until analysis shows otherwise probably use Occam’s razor to hypothesise that smoking damages lungs, and that damaged lungs are more prone to catastrophic failure from a disease that further damages lungs.

So keep on giving up and start your lungs healing.

That’s the one, well found

 

[kabbes]

Thanks. I have been using an e-cig for 5 years, so my own personal dilemma is about nicotine in the context of a former smoker, rather than current smoking.

There’s no doubt that smoking is particularly horrifically bad for you. But, as we’ve discussed elsewhere, there’s increasing evidence that vaping damages your immune system, particularly in your lungs. It’s great not to be smoking, but that doesn’t mean alternatives are all just fine.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Thanks. I have been using an e-cig for 5 years, so my own personal dilemma is about nicotine in the context of a former smoker, rather than current smoking.

e-cigs are unregulated and their long term effects are unknown. Do you really think all that vapour going into your lungs is doing nowt?

 

[campanula]

We have been 'giving up' since Xmas. We have not bought any tobacco but some opportunistic scrounging has definitely been happening. Anyway, have been in lockdown for almost a week with only a pipe and some weed. While I have raced to my comfort zone (Werthers or Thornton's toffees), I have not really been eating much, so 'diet' still ongoing. My batteries are all dead so vaping not likely either. Would be gnawing my nail;s (if I had teeth). Always a silver lining.

 

[elbows]

e-cigs are unregulated and their long term effects are unknown. Do you really think all that vapour going into your lungs is doing nowt?

No, and I'm not interested at all in general advice about vaping and smoking. I'm interested in Covid-19 specific advice relating to ACE2. I'm not about to change my nicotine intake if it could cause a spike in ACE2 levels, for example. The science hasnt figured all that out yet.

 

[kabbes]

I don’t think a worry that vaping can damage the lungs’ ability to fight infection is “general advice” with respect to C-19.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There’s no doubt that smoking is particularly horrifically bad for you. But, as we’ve discussed elsewhere, there’s increasing evidence that vaping damages your immune system, particularly in your lungs. It’s great not to be smoking, but that doesn’t mean alternatives are all just fine.

But as discussed elsewhere, nobody on here claims that.

And in reply to sleaterkinney, the long-term effects of vaping are partially unknown. There is plenty that we can know wrt the stuff going in and the stuff not going in in comparison to smoking. And there is also the anecdotal but nonetheless mounting evidence from vapers themselves that their breathing and general cardiovascular health have improved noticeably after switching to vaping.

Don't want to turn this into a thread about vaping, but there does seem to be a need among some for vaping to be comparably bad for you to smoking. There's no particular reason why that would be the case, and there is a basis to believe that it is not the case. Does not mean it's harmless (although 'passive vaping' almost certainly is harmless, which is important in any debate about where vaping ought to be allowed), but nobody is claiming that.

 

[elbows]

I don’t think a worry that vaping can damage the lungs’ ability to fight infection is “general advice” with respect to C-19.

I have a very specific area of concern. If people arent interested in that then fine, I will take my discussion elsewhere, I'm not here for generic thoughts on vaping.

 

[elbows]

Sorry that my recent messages on this probably seem snotty. I was just trying to be clear about the angle I am most personally interested in, given my own personal dilemma. There is simply no way I am going to adjust my vaping habits right now, given the uncertainties and contradictions of ACE2-related papers.

 

[Dogsauce]

Is there not a greater risk for smokers/vapers due to hands being near mouth/face frequently, so presenting a greater risk of infection via that pathway?

 

[elbows]

Is there not a greater risk for smokers/vapers due to hands being near mouth/face frequently, so presenting a greater risk of infection via that pathway?

Yes in theory it complicates those matters. I have stopped taking my vape with me when I go out because thats when I'm paying attention to the hands-face stuff. Even if it didnt compromise that, the ecig is another surface to contaminate.

 

[kabbes]

I’m not going to hunt for them now, but last year I read a tonne of papers that investigated the link between nicotine and acetylcholine with respect to dementia. Most of them found no obvious link, some of them found a marginal link at most. For what it’s worth.

 

[kabbes]

... and by a tonne, I of course mean 4-6, which felt like several tonnes at the time.

 

[xes]

Please do - the only study I’ve seen so far (the
main demographic breakdown one of just over 1000 cases) suggests quite the opposite, with smokers making up about 12% of all cases but 25% of cases resulting in death/ICU/ventilator. This doesn’t of course take into account whether smokers are just less likely to get it in the first place, but it certainly suggests that smoking contributes to an increased risk of severe disease. (For conpletness: as with all the results in that paper the lack of multivariate analysis is endless frustrating, there’s no way of knowing if those smokers were also typically older, confounding the risk factors. But on the raw data that’s the interpretation).

Ok, here is where I saw it....follow me..

Tobacco-Use Disparity in Gene Expression of ACE2, the Receptor of 2019-nCov

In current severe global emergency situation of 2019-nCov outbreak, it is imperative to identify vulnerable and susceptible groups for effective protection and care. Recently, studies found that 2019-nCov and SARS-nCov share the same receptor, ACE2. In this study, we analyzed four large-scale...

www.preprints.org

On that link about ACE2 and smokers, in the comments section someone posts this link...

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.06.20020974v1.full.pdf

But shortly after (must have been after I read it) someone has posted that the study suggests the opposite. Looks like someone misunderstood the data. (I took a glance and glazed over) It even sounds possible that it;s the same one you're referring to. With the 12% thing. Twice more likely to get complications, 3 times more likely to die.

Back to my former question...do any of them lung detox thingies work?

 

[elbows]

Yes I drove myself crazy with conflicting research on the ACE2 stuff. Some people seemed to misinterpret some research papers, but there were still papers that disagreed too. Clearly ACE and ACE2 have a relationship with each other in several ways, some of which are known and understood, and this has theoretical implications for all manner of things - certain conditions, medicines and smoking. But the quality and quantity of existing research on all the relevant details just isnt there yet as far as I've been able to tell. I hope they learn more as quickly as possible and some consensus is reached, and not just because of my own smoking history.

I've never even looked at lung detox things, detox stuff is normally bollocks and I dont expect there is anything that is going to wipe away my smoking history. Only the passage of time since I gave up counts, with the additional complication of having used an ecig ever since.

 

[Shechemite]

14 hours. No murders

 

[Party04]

It's almost a year since I gave up smoking (April 10th) and it's one of the best things I've ever done. The first few days were extremely difficult where I felt like I had so much nervous (or assertive) energy. It changed me but I think - from what other people said, I became a better person. I took up jogging, going to the gym a lot more, felt less anxious and had a much sharper appetite.

If ever there was a time to kick the filthy habit, it's NOW! You can do it! Best of luck to everyone quitting. You'll start to notice the difference in a couple of days and from there it's gets better and better. Buy a big packet of wine gums when you're out and about.